Switching 11 ceiling fans off in away mode

Discussion in 'C-Bus Toolkit and C-Gate Software' started by fleetz, Jan 13, 2007.

  1. fleetz

    fleetz

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    I have 11 ceiling fans wired across 3 relay units and want to be able to switch all off when the alarm panel (Ness M1 with C-Bus interface) is in the away mode.

    I would perfer to achieve this via programming each of the 11 relays to switch off rather than rewire the fans to one relay unit (5512RVF) and use the 12 relay to feed the other 11. If all fans are one you could be switch 1200-1500watts of inductive load through the "master" relay.

    1. I have a few spare relays not used so I could via the Ness M1 switch a "dummy relay" on or off on arming the panel in the away mode. Is there away to switch the fans off when is sees the "dummy relay" change it's state?

    2. I could rewire the ceiling fans so all 11 were on the same relay if that helps and provides a solution. If so how can they all be controlled in the away mode?

    The only instructions the Ness M1 allows onto C-Bus is lighting (application 56) so I can not send say a security application only lighting. Hence my suggestion of switching a dummy relay.

    Appreciate any input.

    Cheers,

    Fleetz
     
    fleetz, Jan 13, 2007
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  2. fleetz

    pbelectrical

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    Scene it.

    Do you have any scene supporting units in your network, a PAC or touchscreen would be best ? If you do then it is a simple matter of writing a scene to issue individual off comands to each of your 11 fans, then trigger this scene from your alarm panel.
    I have not done this with a ness panel that issues C-Bus commands, but have done it with many other panels utilising their auxillary relay outputs and a Bus Coupler, works well every time. Having a ness panel should only make it easier.

    Regards,

    Peter Brown.
     
    pbelectrical, Jan 13, 2007
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  3. fleetz

    fleetz

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    Thanks Peter,

    No PAC or touchscreen in the system. The only scene supporting units are those contained in DLT and Neo input units. Unfortunatley the Ness unit only sends a group address to C-Bus, no trigger or action groups.

    No problems firing a relay and connecting a bus coupler. I am not sure how the bus coupler can fire a scene given it has no scene capability. Any further thoughts appreciated.

    Regards,

    Fleetz
     
    fleetz, Jan 13, 2007
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  4. fleetz

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Two POSSIBLE methods:

    1. Use an Area address in the output units (be aware that this will make every channel go off, including channels you are using for other things). Set them all to the same group number. Get the M1 panel to send an OFF command on that group.

    2. Use output unit logic, allocate a logic group number (use the same one in all the relay units). Set each of the relevant channels to use that group as part of its logic operation (MIN logic I think), and get the M1 to send an OFF command on that group.

    Option 2 means that by sending an ON command on the logic group, the previous settings of the fans will be restored, which you could not do using option 1 (because it would just turn on every output channel on each of those relay units).
     
    ashleigh, Jan 14, 2007
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  5. fleetz

    fleetz

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    Hi Ashleigh,

    Thanks for that.

    In the first option if you then send an off command say to a single ceiling fan unit when the M1 is not armed mode would that not then turn all others off too?

    Option 2 sounds like the go. I will do some work on logic group numbers, I have not done this before. Are your sure this is supported via M1? I am fairly sure it only sends Group Addresses. Is the logic group address different in any way?

    I have tried in the past to use M1 to fire a scene stored with the C-Bus system and discovered that M1 currently only supports GA only. To fire the scene of off I needed trigger and action selectors which M1 didn't support. Is the logic group address the same hierchy as GA?

    Thanks again,

    Regards,

    Fleetz
     
    fleetz, Jan 14, 2007
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  6. fleetz

    Custom

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    Trigger control

    Could you not set a scene on a DLT or Neo and name the scene trigger group to "Fans Off"? Then set the application on the bus coupler to trigger control and select "Fans Off" for channel 1 with contact closure from the M1.

    Not too sure it would work without testing, just thinking aloud.

    Cheers
    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2007
    Custom, Jan 15, 2007
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  7. fleetz

    ashleigh Moderator

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    You could use a scene.

    A logic group is the same as any other group so the M1 would not know the difference. The only place the magic happens is inthe outpout units.
     
    ashleigh, Jan 15, 2007
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  8. fleetz

    JohnC

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    Area address is separate to Group address - 1 level higher in fact. So, you could have individual control of each load (relay channel), and then set and control an Area Address that turns on/off ALL loads on a particular device (relay unit). An Area Address resides at the same Application level as a normal GA (it is a normal GA) so it's easy to trigger. That said, it's a lot easier to program and test than it is to explain.

    Some people here absolutely hate Area Addresses, personally I have no problem with them at all. I have used Area Address for "All Off" commands in projects with over 500 x GAs and it works fine.

    Area address is perfect for the type of thing that you want to do, but ONLY if you don't care that all loads on the devices will be toggled.

    Cheers, John
     
    JohnC, Jan 17, 2007
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  9. fleetz

    JohnC

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    LOL...I probably explained that pretty badly, so here's an additional attempy at clarifying it. The bottom line is that Area Address (AA) is very handy but there are a couple of "issues" with AA, as discussed here :

    http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879

    Basically the problems relate to the way that the load Group Address (GA) status is communicated on the C-Bus. Since (AA) is a control at a higher level than the GA, the possibility exists that C-Bus devices think that a load is "on" (since the GA status is 'on') when in fact the load is switched off - this is because the AA has over-ridden the GA as it's at a higher level.

    I never had any issues with this in normal C-Bus networks, and the LEDs etc all followed the actual load status correctly. What DIDN'T work was a old Homegate 1.3 screen, which for some reason always left it's (internal) GA status indicators at whetever had been set by Homegate. This Homegate problem might have been resolved in later software versions, and I am not sure how the Mono & Colour touch screens cope with Area Address "over-rides" of the GAs.

    Keep in mind that testing an AA doesn't require ANY changes to your existing wiring or equipment - so the easiest way to find out whether it'll work would be to program one of your (ceiling fan) relays with a AA, then toggle that Group using Toolkit and see what happens :D
     
    JohnC, Jan 17, 2007
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