NEO: 8 GA + 4 scene possible??

With old installation software V2, I can still control 8 different GA after adding 4 scenes to a NEO switch. With toolkit, I can't. I experienced a lot of problems on programming scene on NEO with V2, therefore I would only use toolkit now. However, I have a room with 8 different lighting, all with different levels but only one NEO switch. The spec for the keys are: master on, master off, master up, master down, scene 1 to 4. Do I need to use V2 again and if there is any problem to control 8 GA + 4 scenes (I guess toolkit disallow it for some reason, right)?

 

You are correct when you say that Toolkit dis-allows this for some reason. Future product updates will mean that the use of 8 Groups + Scenes will not work. With the current units under some circumstances your indicators may not do what you expect them to. It was a mistake in V2 to allow you to program the unit this way.

If you're using 4 Scenes on the unit, linked to 4 keys, then how are you planning to control those 8 groups if you only have 4 keys left? Assigning keys to 2 or more groups at once? Are you remote triggering the Scenes?

Toolkit does not allow programming a Neo switch in this way to ensure that our products and programming are backwards compatible and that the indicators always behave in the correct way. Future versions of the Neo product will require a Scene to be associated with a Block and the Group Address for this block to be unused. This is all so that more features can be squeezed in, as you guys keep asking for more!

 

Don't get me wrong, we are not trying to get more. In fact, it was a common practice from day 1 when we got a neo. The original plan was quite simple:

Under V2,

Key 1 to 4 all controlling all 8 GA!! (ie. all boxes ticked)

Key 1: Recall 1 (All set to 100%)
Key 2: OFF KEY
Key 3: UP KEY
Key 4: DOWN KEY

Key 5 to 8 are scene switch.

The indicators are confusing that we normally set the first 4 indicators to either always ON or OFF. (With toolkit now we can have different color for scene indicator )

When we present the NEO switch at the sale stage, we call it a 8-GANG input switch, not 8 key switch. It is hard to tell the clients the master key cannot control 8 groups of lighting if we use scene. (In fact it is already hard to explain to them that they cannot have 8 scene controlling more than 5 groups of lighting)

As an installer there is no advantage to do complicated programming, but we need to fullfil what the clients asked for from their understanding of the product. And the bottom line is, what they should expect the remaining 4 keys to do when we have 4 scene already? Controlling partial lighting or other lighting not covered by those scene. That will be more complicated to explain and clients will ask for more if they ever understand.

Having played around the products for some time, we change our presentation from saying those NEO are intelligent magical panel to a flexible 8 gang switch. All we want to get is a logical 8 gang switch with scene functions

 

Well, you are the only one then! We have been inundated with requests for more features in the Neo switch. There is an update coming that will add a range of extra features to the switch. The list of new features is long. As a consequence a Scene requires more of the block functions. This means that there will be no more using of the group address assigned to a block "underneath" a Scene.

If you are using a Scene then you are likely to be using one of the buttons on the unit to control that Scene. A Scene + 8 Groups of control = 9 functions. You would be more accurate if you presented the Neo switch as an 8-function 8-button/key device.
If the limitation of 8 Scenes of 5 Groups is an issue then you can always remotely trigger a Scene in another device, a C-Touch or another Neo for example.
Given that in this instance you only have 4 Scenes then you will be able to control 10 groups from each Scene within the unit.

And you are entirely correct in presenting the Neo this way. If you want an intelligent magical panel then buy a C-Touch.

 

Of course we want more ourselves so that it should be easier to solve request. But the more complicated it is, the more the client ask us to go back and modify. We have to find a balance between clean/easy to remember operation and powerful set-up.

With C-Touch, in fact I don't know how to make a Master function key, like the GA11-14 toggle together, or up/down together key I can do it in the E2000 series input but not C-Touch. From this thread I get an impression that these "master key" concept is not greatly recommended. Yes, the indicator is always cnfusing that way. However, like the "scene modify" in DLT and "scene up/down" with the wireless c-bus decive, they are great and important feature for easy operation . with 8 keys on a small neo, clients need to remember a lot if all keys are doing little thing. Master keys and scene keys are important if they have 10+ neo in their house.

And the remote trigger method is a great way to do more, but we just learn this after reading the post in this forum The project we are dealing with are 6 months old and they have only one NEO switch in every zone and the zones are not linked by request. We have to make them happy with what they have and not ask them to add module at this late stage. Now, my options are either program the neo with V2 like I mentioned or group a few GA to make it a 8 scene switch controlling 5 GA each. What's your recommendation? Of course I'll first try to get it done with 4GA + 4 scene, but they may not be possible in all zones. I know that if I use the first option, I'll have problem if I look at the programming with toolkit one day. That means I cannot service it in future unless I put a big sticker to remind ourselves to use V2 only

 

C-Touch is a very powerful device. It can do everything a C-Bus switch can do and a whole lot more. I suggest that you get yourself along to a training session on C-Touch so that you can learn the power that this device has.

The DLT Scene Modify will be introduced to Neo some time in the near future. This feature enables you to do Scene Dimmers, Scene Timers, Recall all Groups in a Scene to a Level etc. Very powerful as you say. It would allow you to achieve desired 4 Scene + 4 Master functions very easily and in a Toolkit compatible way. Please be patient, it is coming!

This is covered in the Training courses that are run in Australia. What training is available in your area? If you have a C-Touch on the network then you can store very large Scenes in the C-Touch and then remotely trigger them from the Neo switch.

This is why we developed the DLT switch. The user no longer needs to remember what each button does, they can simply read it on the switch LCD.

If you're happy to support this site using V2 software then I don't see any real problem with you doing that. Leaving a sticker somewhere that you need to use V2 to program these units is a good idea. You could always leave a memory flash card or floppy disks on site with the latest V2 software and your database on site. If you return some time in the future then you will be able to program the site.

I would recommend that if you can achieve what you want using Toolkit then that is definitely a better option. You know that we will be supporting Toolkit for many years to come. If you can do this by grouping C-Bus Groups down to 5 Group Addresses in total for each Zone then you know that you can program the Neo's with 8 Scenes and Toolkit will work fine.

 

Thanks for your comment.

The only thing I want but can't do with C-Touch is the single Master (All Toggle; All Up and All Down) key function so far. There was problem with memory limits but greatly solved by the new firmware/software. It will be great if you have online training material though

As for the DLT and wireless C-Bus, there are new features/functions I can't understand and have no manual. But I know things are being added graduately so I guess I just wait for an updated manual when dust settle.

For remote triggering we didn't know how to get a neo to control Lighting Application and also issue Trigger Application command. Since we didn't sell much C-Touch, we didn't look at remote triggering in great detail. But now I am much happier because there are PAC and I need to use remote triggering a lot.