Help ! Area Controled Relay but i need to block a group

Hey all first post but a long time reader of the site, I've got a little bit of experience under my belt but have now encounter a problem I can't seem to fix by myself. I have a mate who has a four level complex on each level is 4 x 12 Chanel relays that are all area controlled under the tag Alarm off which kills all the lights when he tags out for the night. Now he's installed some outside lighting on different relays, is the a way to block the Area tag to individual group address's ????

Cheers Mick

 

No way.
Area addressing affects all channels in a unit.

Most of the time, scenes are a better way to handle the 'all off' scenario.

I don't know what is issuing the 'Alarm off' commands in your system, but In your mate's case, all you need to have on the network is one scene capable unit (Neo, Saturn, C-Touch, DLT, etc.) to issue a scene with the current 'Alarm off' group as well as individual groups of all channels of the new relay you want to turn off.

The scene should be configured with a trigger group and action selector, and instead of issuing the 'Alarm off' command from whatever does it now, replace it with a scene trigger (in the trigger control application).

The scene will then play out, and all the current relays will turn off as well as the selected channels of the new relay.

 

Thats 192 groups in a scene (4 levels with 4 12 ch relays).

I am glad I am not setting up that scene. As for area control, one group address and its done.

Area address control is great, I just wish more work was put into evolving it as it really simplifies thing - but that only my opinion and I know its not shared by the majority. I suspose thats because thats how I was taught (may have been before scene were available on anything but a scene controller).

Mick

 

I wasn't suggesting a 192 group scene. If the original area address for existing relays is used as part of the scene, then there need only be 12 groups in the scene (assuming one channel of a new 12 channel relay is to be left out of the 'alarm off'.
That's why I suggested that whatever issued the 'alarm off' originally would have to trigger the (new) scene.

 

Thanks guys ended up putting in a B+W touch and doing the scene thing, i stil have a slight problem as for some reason i cant see all of my units on the top floor which is now on the other side of a network bridge. Ill keep working through it...

Cheers Again Mick

 

Area Addressing and Logic Groups

I like Area Addressing too; but can someone explain the reasoning behind why the logic groups shown in the logic tab are also effected by an Area Address change?

ie. I use the Min logics capabilities to set up a night dimming effect - however when I hit my 'All lights Off' button it also sets the night logic groups to their off value - and then the lights are always off until the night logic group gets reset.

Why, I ask, why change the logic groups; they shouldn't be a part of this madness ..... what scenario could this be of any benefit ....?

(is there a "I'm going crazy" smiley to pick from - more logic code now ... )

Cheers,
Ambro

 

If you used this thinking, then you would have no control over the loads after the all off was set to 0.

Currently, you ramp the area group to 0 and everything turns off. You can then go to a wall switch and turn the light back on.'

If you use the logic function as above, the group is set to 0 and you can't walk up to that same switch and turn the light on.

Currently the only way to handle this is to turn the area group off and then turn the specific group back on. If you cant tolerate the bump, then you will have to move it to a different relay/dimmer and not include it in the group.

Mick

 

That is an excellent question.
I hadn't considered all the ways to use area addressing.

We do realise area addressing has a lot of 'gotchas', and for that reason we try not to promote its use, but of course there are some times where it offers an attractive solution to a problem.

It makes sense to not include the logic groups as you suggest.

 

Thx - knowing me I'm sure I'll have more soon ... as always my question is - is this a firmware thing that can not be changed or can a furture version of toolkit allow us to isolate the logic groups from Area Address changes?

Not to sound dogmatic but if CIS doesn't want to promote it they should maybe remove it from the Basic Training Courses tutorial examples / or put in some more documentation detailing the quirks of Area Addresses/ caveat about the logic groups.

I'll still use this Area Address method of controlling all channels with adding a little logic so the Night Logic groups get bumped back to a correct level if they go to 0% - only took three lines of basic code and a scene including these night logic groups. Not too hard & still better, resource wise, than making a scene with potentially an enormous amount of SetLightLevel commands.

 

This is a firmware thing. The workaround is of course to use a scene. As above, if you want to control area address of other units at the same time, include the area address as part of the scene. Just make sure any units you don't want to affect ALL groups in, have the AREA address set to unused.

I think the answer to the first part of your question is that the feature is too useful to just ignore. I think there are some items in the FORUMS if you search that highlight the main issues. This thread covers the obvious problem of when not all groups are to be included in the AREA control, but others (probably, I haven't searched but just from memory) cover the other gotchas related to problems you can get if the input units and output units are not configured with the same AREA address, and the problem with using ONKEY and OFFKEY microfunctions with AREA addressing where RECALL 100% and RAMPOFF should be used.