Advice Please - Need more outputs on Wireless Neos

Hi all,

I've "inherited" a large wired-Cbus house which has Neos everywhere. However when the electrician originally wired it up they forgot to wire 2 bathrooms back to the Cbus Distribution Board - so those 2 rooms are wired conventionally.

Client wants switches in bathrooms to match the Neos in rest of house. It's a timber framed house but it's all completed (sheeted and tiled) - so it has wall cavities but we cannot easily run new cables for control or loads.

2 bathrooms - each bathroom has these 5 loads :
* Downlights (Bath & Shower)
* Vanity Light
* Exhaust Fan
* IXLtastic centre lamp
* IXLtastic 2 heat lamps
* IXLtastic 2 heat lamps

Wireless Neos would be perfect, but even the relay ones only seem to have 2 channels (dimmers I understand, but relays = what the?).

Is there an add-on unit available that I can chuck down the wall cavity to add 3 extra outputs ?

Alternatively, anyone got any ideas how I can do it without having 3 x 2gang Neos on the wall (ugly and unacceptable to client), or throwing wireless Neos down the wall cavities ?

Thanks in advance, John

PS: I haven't got a Cbus cable in (or even near) either room - if that was available then I'd just throw a 8ch relay up in the ceiling cavity above each IXLtastic. Then re-configure the load wiring - it would be time consuming but straight forward. But I'm looking for quick easy wireless solution if possible.

 

Plug away

John

A much, much better solution would be to put in 2-cahnnel wireless Neo's where you can and use wireless plug adaptors for the extra loads.

If you've ever pulled a wireless unit to bits you will see that there's physically not room for more channels or more relays inside the unit. Size is the limiting factor.

Of course we could put smaller relays in, but then all you'd be able to switch with them would be a small incandescent loads and you can forget fluorescent, hibay or motor style loads. The rating on the 2-channel dimmers is already 2 x 250W (1A each). To increase the channel count would reduce this further, as 500W (2A total) is the thermal limit of the enclosure. Not to mention that it wouldn't fit in the box!

 

Thanks, Newman

I understand the physical and heat limits on the dimmers (rated 1x500VA or 2x250VA). I was referring to Wireless Neo Relays, thought that maybe a few more could be jammed in there somehow

Using 4-gang Neos (2ch) and Plug Adapters sounds expensive, but it's not really that bad. For each room I'd need :

1 x 5854R4F2 = $242 trade
3 x 5812R... $163.35ea = $490
Total $732 per room + our margin + programming

Compares to :
1 x 5054NL = $155.54
1 x L5508RVFP = $538.41
Total $693.95 + rewiring + our margin + programming

***************

However, at a Training Course I attended there was some talk about a "dangling down inside the wall" thingy that would give more output channels on wireless wall plates. Dunno if that was a dream, a wish or a planned future product ?

I am thinking that it would be relatively easy to have a relay output driver for (say) 8 channels and then just plug in remote relay / dimmer modules as required. This is the way any decently-sized dimmer etc is run, with a small remote wall plate controller.

However, I am unsure how many people face the same problem I am - probably more than Clipsal realises ? Also I can see there might be some legality issues with a current-switching device mounted loose in a wall cavity

John

 

Type of building structure

What type of house is it ?

Single Story?

Does it have roof access?

If it does there is no reason why an electrician cannot get to the existing switches and run wires in that you require.

 

John

The relays need to be internal because the unit derives it's power from the circuit that is connected to the Relays. Otherwise there would be too many wires running back and forth to the external relay box. All those wires would need to be mains rated too.

Ahh, the joys of 2-wire product....

If we could come up with an expansion Relay module that wired in, now that would be neat! Not a simple task.

 

When I say "remote" I don't mean 10m away, I mean directly connected but separate to the existing wall box. What I'm suggesting is not to have all the circuitry inside the confines of that nominal 100x50x50 wall box behind the switch. Gotta think "outside the square"

Firstly, there is no reason why the back of a unit can't be L-shaped. What I mean is that currently most manufacturers think of it as a "box" and that the plate must fit "straight in" to the wall.

But the rear box could also be L-shaped - an extension going DOWN into the wall - hard to explain but imagine an upside-down L where the long leg is doing down the wall.

Alternatively, a wired-together remote box. I work in the lighting industry, and it is extremely common to put heat-sensitive and/or large things remotely. For example, Low Voltage lights have their transformer mounted remotely. Metal Halide downlights have their control gear mounted remotely.

In the case of >32V, the cables between them is mains rated - it's no big deal to get mains rated cables you know... So, in the case of an "add-on box" for Cbus Wireless, we'd have :
Active Mains
1 (LV) to drive each relay coil
1 (LV common) for all the relay coils
So a 2ch add-on would take 3 cables, a 4ch would take 5 cables, etc

Special (double) insulation would be required to get around the issue of segregation of Mains and LV, but the cable size wouldn't be that big - you are only pulling a few amps so could use 0.5-0.75mm? cable (only for the mains).

The relay driver circuitry is tiny, and I am sure could be integrated in the existing wall box. The biggest hassle would be a plug and socket arrangement, so that the add-on didn't have to be hard-wired on site. The solution to that is to wire it in the factory and supply it as a kind of umbilical cord

OK - I'm back to dreaming now, John

 

John

An "L" shaped product would not work for a lot of installations. In Australia we still use a lot of metal wallbox style installations. I appreciate that it may work for you but it's would not be a generic solution that would work for others, esp. overseas markets.

You have missed my point about the product being 2-wire. Because it's 2-wire the power for driving the relays has to come from the load circuit. As such, there's additional connections in parallel to EVERY relay to derive power for driving the coil. These all need terminals and as such that would make the room available inside the product for the rest of the electronics/relays even smaller.

Because the product is 2 wire there are no LV wires everything in the product, including any external connections, is at mains potential.

I agree that the best way to either add channels or rating would be through some kind of external box. Just understand that there are many, many factors to consider when determining the implementation method.

 

Hi Newman, thanks for your replies.

I hope that what I refer to as a "remote box" and my other comments about having just the relays mounted remote isn't confusing things...

Firstly I think a check of the Clipsal sales figures would show that the majority of homes constructed in Australia have HOLLOW walls and use wall clip mounting, rather than metal wall boxes. Dropping a remote device into the wall cavity makes installation an absolute breeze - basically a switch change and it's done. I agree that for solid walls it's not so easy - but what I'm proposing could also be used in that situation too (but mounting the remote unit at the load rather than at the switch plate).

For hollow walls, one off-the-shelf solution is just to buy a Wireless switch, program it and drop THAT down the cavity. That unit already has the electronics, output stages, etc all built in ! So, for my suggestion of an "add-on" unit - how about a standard 2-gang wireless switch, but without the switches & plate (ie: just the rear box and terminals).

Or, take 2 x plug-pack units, and delete the cases, buttons, plugs and sockets, etc - and enclose those in a small box with a terminal block on it... there's a 2-channel remote output device. Or just one plugpack - rip out the guts and use that for a 1 channel. That'd also work if the plugpack is also a "2-wire" device.

Remember, it's wireless - the remote "output unit" doesn't HAVE to be situated right next to the switch. It could be mounted in the ceiling cavity near the light, or even inside some luminaires (eg: ceiling canopy of a pendant). All that is required is an unswitched active and the load... the RF provides the comms.

I have some serious concerns about the legality and/or reliability of having socket outlets with Wireless Plugpacks then Loads plugged into them - it would not be good practice to mount these inside a wall cavity or up in the ceiling space. The plugpacks are probably only approved for plugging into power points, not being used for (what is classed in AS3000 as) permanent wiring.

So, in a nutshell - What I am basically proposing is exactly the same "concept" as a plug-pack unit, but having it hardwired rather than plug-in. And preferably having 2 or more channels, rather than just one. Then, we could pop that device into the load circuit where ever it could be physically fitted.

Cheers, John

PS: A similar situation occurred in the early days of C-bus (v1). A small, cheap remote-mounted output device was required. I was actually involved in the development of the metal case for it, and they're still in the range : the 5101R and 5102RVF

 

One key difference to consider is that you need to learn the device into the network and program it. To do this you need physical access to the unit, via a programming button.

With a remote device the ONLY way to program would be to power it up locally and learn it into the network, aka Gateway. Then either create your network associations there and then, or install it remotely and configure with Toolkit. You're forced into a 2-stage commisioning process by adding to a network manually and then toolkit for final configuration.

Such a device, once installed remotely, can not have it's Learned associations changed any way other than by Toolkit because you don't have access to any buttons for Learn Mode. If the user wants to change which Wireless devices control that load then they are forced to use Toolkit.

This is a limitation that some people don't mind whereas others are not prepared to accept.

C-Bus wired does not have this problem because you can access any device at any time, even if unprogrammed.

 

I have a double storey house, with a partial CBUS installation wired and wireless, and would love to be able to fully retrofit downstairs, but am not really prepared to hack the walls and ceilings to do so.

As John mentioned, a perfect example of a use for a wireless 3+ channel relay would be a typical bathroom (IXL's etc), so I'm sure there would be a demand for this.

Just wondering if there are any Future Plans for extra relays on wireless switches?

I know that I am repeating John's initial question, but it has been a long time since the original post, and hoping there may be something in the pipeline.

Cheers,
Steve...

 

Thanks for the update Ashleigh. Will wait and see what happens in the next 12mths or so. Cheers...

 

Extending C-Bus Wireless

Hello C-Bus World,

Long time c-bus installer, regular forum stalker, 1st time poster.

I know this is a very very old post, but thought I'd give my 2 cents.

I would of thought that in the example given ie. IXL bathroom 3/4 in one that it would be a simple matter of wiring 3 sockets to the feed at the IXL fitting. Then 3 relay plug packs 2 wired plugs each wired to the heaters, 1 to the fan and just pop the whole lot into the ceiling space (there has to be some kind of cavity, those things are huge) just program them before fitting IXL. Then a wireless switch with 4/6/8 buttons and 2 relays, 1 for the IXL light and downlights switched together, the other for the vanity.

Or even 4 plug packs if the downlights really needed to be separate, with either the vanity or downlights on the additional plug pack (dependent on the way it was initially wired.

Personally Id hang a wireless gateway off the existing wired network and that would ease setup and allow for further configuration as well as integration. Otherwise learn programing could be done 'on the bench' before final placement, which would of course probably mean a removal of the IXL if any further configuration was needed in order to access learning mode.

Heat issues would obviously need to be considered given how much heat is produced from these things (which is also why I program the fan to come on if the heater has been on for any longer then 5mins on all installs).


I have had experience with placing a dimmer plug pack 'dangling' in a (gyprock) cavity. It is a bit of stuffing around as plug/pack/socket needs to be plugged into each other inside the wall which is a little tricky with only a standard hole (I actually dropped the plug pack down the wall and had to cut a floor level hole to fish him out, luckily a standard size slim blanking plate hid my oops).

This was to gain an additional dimmer needed for a wireless retro fit of an apartment (ie 3 dimmers at the switch plate).

Whilst in order to place a plug pack at the switch requires a neutral I don't see why placing a 2-wire switch plate within the wall (in an ventilated enclosure) wouldn't work.

Sure there is the needing of programing before placement, and the hassle of virtually uninstalling everything in the needing to reprogram anything (without gateway or for future network enrolment).

In the 7 years since installing the plug pack in the cavity I only needed to access it once when I replaced the gateway.

Whilst I try avoid doing these obscure type jobs, given how reliable the devices have held up, does anyone have an opinion on whether this is acceptable practice?

Thanks

And thanks to everyone who contributes to the forums, over the years it has been both saviour and inspiration; keep up the good work.

 

Guess it would work. Though could be pushing the temperature limits of the wireless plug relays, max temp is 40' C

But would ask if you have that much access to the ceiling space anyway, why wouldn't you just wire up a standard C-bus relay rather than wireless?

Also pretty academic anyway, was mention in another post here recently that the wireless wall switches are no longer available. Though plug adaptors and the gateway are still available.