Why C-Bus?????

Hi there

We are at the start of a house renovation and the whole house is going to be re-wired. I have been trying to wrap my mind around home automation including the lighting/control side and the A/V side. I've looked at X10 and UPB as well as C-BUS, Dynalite, etc. and am really struggling to understand why one might opt to go really proprietary and use C-BUS? I know I'm throwing a cat amongst the pigeons but honestly, why? It seems that everything C-BUS can do can be done by X10 or UPB (or a hybrid of the two) at a fraction of the cost as well as allowing the home owner great flexibility in adjusting the functionality (by re-programming themselves) without having to spend $120 an hour calling in a technician.

Some arguments seem to centre on robustness - UPB (available in Australia next year) will solve that. Other arguments around X10 being decades old - so what - it works?

Other arguments say X10/UPB only do a fraction of what is availabe (but most people only want on, off, dim and scenes which is all available).

Another argument is that C-BUS allows zillions of ports (whatever the right word is) but most homes would be lucky to use the 256 available in X10.

I'm writing in this forum in the hope that all you C-BUS experts can convince me of the true benefits of C-BUS (and its cost) over all the other wonderful technologies out there for home automation and control.

ie. Am I missing something??????

Thanks

MJ

 

You can download the C-Bus Toolkit and companion software from our website for free and program any C-Bus unit to do what you want without having to call any technician.

 

It is noted for some products that the warranty is void if programmed by a non-approved installer.

But on the lighter side, look at the quality of switches etc that C-BUS offers and then look at the opposition - there is no comparing them, C-BUS wins hands down. CIS is allways releasing new products, which can just simply take the place of old devices without the need of re-wiring.

If you want your installation to have the WOW factor then C-BUS is the only answer. If you are happy with something that looks Mediocre then that is the individuals decision

 

No it Don't!

X10 is about the most unreliable control system I have ever had the misfortune of trying to use.

You will probably get it to work a bit. By that I mean some lights will be ok but others will be flaky, and it's always a moving target. Everytime you buy a new appliance there will be remedial work needed to prop up X10.

No I don't sell C-Bus or own shares in Clipsal, this is my experience with X10, before C-Bus came along and saved my sanity. C-Bus just works.

 

Wow factor - how much?

Thanks so far to all the responses.

I need to throw another curly in though... surely the benefits of going C-BUS don't come down to how fancy the switches are????

That I guess is another real concern I have. I am not interested in "showing off" to visitors, etc. All I want is a system that works, that allows me to alter lighting levels or create scenes easily and that also helps me manage other equipment (A/V, irrigation, alarm, some appliances) on the network without spending bucket loads of money.

Maybe I should re-phrase this whole thing and ask simply roughly how much would it cost to:

1) Install basic lighting control (through C-BUS) in a two level home - 4 beds - 2 living areas - 1 study, garage, a few garden lights front and back
2) Forget about A/V for now
3) Forget about alarm for now
4) Manage a couple of appliances and also the irrigation.

Is it true that even though software is available to manage the C-BUS oneself, warranties are all void? (I suspect the answer has to be no given the Australian trade practices act frowns upon such scenarios.)

Regards

MJ

 

X-10 - Unreliable???

Rohan

If X10 is so unreliable, why is it still going strong after nearly 30 years?

That said, I am talking about a professional installation with loops correctly wired and a smart controller managing it. I am not considering going down to Dick Smith's, buying a few gadgets and plugging them into wall sockets.

And UPB (here next year) will almost certainly increase reliability to virtually 100% even on the worse installations (as far as I can gather).

Regards

MJ

 

Actually this an important aspect as to why people install our products. You can't beat the look of them. It is very important, the same way people carefully choose their curtains and paint colours. Why wouldn't the look be an important part fo the decision?

Contact an approved CIS System Integrator or CIS and discuss it with them. take in you house plans and they can run through all the options etc...

 

It's not. Now that there are viable alternative solutions people are moving towards them. X10 suits the rental market and existing homes because there is no need to rewire.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you, the choice is yours. I'm just letting you know my experience.

And in my experience, run a million miles from x10.

 

Never looked at the details of UPB before, but a quick google has revealed a few things:

communication rate: 4 bits per mains cycle (20ms in Australia)
Communication overhead: 14 mains cycles = 280ms in Australia (preamble, header and checksum)
Dimmier / switching operation: 6 mains cycles per "light" = 120ms in Australia

Encoding method: voltage spike added to mains waveform near zero-crossing:

Compatibility with EMC requirements: Unknown.

So.. you will be able to turn on 1 light in about 1/2 second. This is acceptable for 1 light, assuming that a re-transmission is not required due to an electrical noise burst on the mains (it is a demanding environment over which to send signals). If you wanted to invoke a scene of , say 10 groups, this would stretch out to 1.5 seconds, at best, as far as I can see.. It may be longer.

This is looking pretty much like x-10 to me.

The EMC aspect may be an issue. It takes a VERY carefully designed system to meet the requirements for a power-line carrier system to meet requirements in Australia, and in my experience, a series of spikes on the mains waveform looks non-compliant. If it's not available here now, that may be one reason.

Don

 

The C-BUS commisioning software is designed for installers and not end-users. But having said that - the touchscreens have user-changeable functions like scenes, special days, passwords, schedules...and the list goes on.

An installer can almost programme anything to be altered by the end-user given the right details

 

CBUS Vs The Rest

Anyone can enroll in a cbus programing course if you are that worried about maintance cost.I dont know about any other systems but i Know about the wide range of new product and the support and experinence in all areas of australia for Cbus. Do the other product have a call centre that you can call if you have a problem.If $$$$$ are a big issue then tailor a cbus installation to suite. Then you can expand it as you relize the capabilties of the system.Alway keep in mind that you only get what you pay for. you cant buy a datsun 180B and expect it to go like a HSV commodore.You can only tweek old technology so much , then you run out of capability.Listen to what the experts tell you about others products and whether they still use those products or have they moved onto someting else.keep $$$$$ in the back of your mind till you get all the info .

 

In some ways Cbus is too complex for a normal, domestic situation. It was originally designed for commercial use - where features, flexibility and absolute reliability are #1, and cost is somewhat secondary

When I say Cbus's too complex, consider that 90% of the jobs we install aren't using Lighting Control System for "control", but rather because of w*nk-factor or because the client thinks that they "have to" install smart wiring.

So, most of our installs are just 1:1 switch-to-load, no scenes, no timers, no logic, etc Perhaps a few 2-way switches is the most complex part of the job. If this is all you need or want, then there's no need to even use Lighting Control - you can do it using conventional wiring!

In most projects there's no break up of physical loads, and every group of lights is wired back on one cable to a central switchboard, so there's no way to change anything later anyway. This is not the way to do it AT ALL.

That wiring mentality defeats the whole idea of a Control System, but that's what people are installing and because they are are spending BIG $$ on the Cbus, they cannot afford to do the things that would make it a "smart house" and allow flexibility in the future.

The whole idea of a Control System is to have individually switched loads (ie: one switch for every downlight in a lounge room) - and then apply a Control System to switch them in groups or banks as required. That way you can change it in the future without rewiring.

If you want to do it properly, then Cbus is about the best you can get. If you want a cheap, Pseudo-Control System to impress your mates, then one of the cheaper, less flexible "domestic toy" systems might be OK for you.

Consider this - the cost of Cbus vs something like X10, what is the real difference? If you are looking to save money and want a good job, then forget ALL Control Systems and spend the $$ on employing a good Lighting / Electrical Designer who can set up the lighting and load cabling properly so that you have flexibility in the future.

You asked why "go really proprietary and use C-BUS" ? Cbus is about the LEAST propreitary of the all the systems. It's Dynalight and others that hide all the info from you so you have to get a technician in to change anything. Cbus is open, software is downloadable for free and there's plenty of support.

In fact, there's no reason to install a Control System right now - you really only need to structure the cabling so that it can be converted in the future. If the cabling's done right you can use conventional switches now, then upgrade the house in stages to control as required - perhaps you don't really NEED lighting control in Bedrooms, I know that I have absolutely no need for it myself. So, save money on that kinda stuff and spend it elsewhere on the job

No Control System can make a cheaply wired, crappy project into a good one. If you want to do it properly, then C-bus is about your best choice. If you are looking to save $$, then please consider WHY you even want a Control System in the first place - in my opinion, you have already missed the point of using one anyway.

The design system should go something like this :
1. Learn what control systems can do for you
2. Decide what you need, and what's just a "want"
3. Consult (pay) experts and get specific info
4. Write a clear scope of works
5. Structure the Cabling properly
6. Decide on the Control System to suit 1-5 above

What you seem to be doing is step 6 before doing the preceeding ones, then trying to work it backwards. That's the probable reason why you are unable to see the difference or advantage of C-bus vs X10.

Cheers, John

 

Worth pointing out that if you need to re-wire a house made of double-brick or masonry, it may be cheaper to use C-bus than conventional wiring.
I took part in an install in a huge brick/masonry house that had an encyclopedia of wiring standards dating back to original electrification- the original fabric insulated wires in conduit were still in use, the main problem was deteriorating rubber insulation from 1950s "improvements".
The builder quoted a 5-figure sum to create wiring access and make good afterwards. Instead we did a Clipsal instal, pulling single pink cables down existing metal conduit and through existing cavities that could not possibly take all the wires needed for a quad switch.
Initially we placed small satelite switchboards on each floor with appropriate dimmers/relays, but relay clicks and dimmer buzz proved irritating and we ended up repositioning everything in a control room in the basement(!) But it still saved $ compared to conventional wiring and the cost of creating access.

 

What about futureproofing?

JohnC

Thanks for your well thought out response.... I'm going to re-read it several times to thoroughly digest it.

To some degree, I'm playing the devil's advocate. I want to get it right so need to thrash out discussion from all angles.

And to everyone else - thanks too. I don't actually think there is any right or wrong answer - it's just a matter of deciding on an appropriate way forward.

On a more fundamental point... if one were just to wire the foundations in place (without necessarily commissioning working aspects) and given lighting, AV, irrigation, security, etc. control would ultimately be required, what sort of wiring would one put in and where? ie. Cat5e, something else, what runs and where would you run them? This is at the grass roots level.

Cheers

Michelle

 

Hi,

Having just had CBUS installed in our house I thought I would add a few comments.

Firstly, CBUS its seriously expensive. I have no issue with that but compared to a traditional installation it just is. If your on a tight budget I would go with the advice above - spend your money on getting the wiring right and when you have the funds you can add in the dimmers / switches later. There are loads of guides on the net about how to wire properly - that in itself can cost thousands. This is a good guide to start you off

http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2

Secondly, it works - I had X10 in a previous house and it was a joke. It was slow to respond, often didn't do what you wanted - very unreliable - as has been suggested I think it is popular because it is cheap, safe and easily uninstalled when moving. I don't know if you are married but my wife is exceptionally un-understanding when stuff stops working - she loves CBUS. She especially loves the "house all off" we just added to her bedside DLT just below the "reading" scene which dims the 5 or so bedroom channels to a very comfortable level. Most lighting in the house is scene lighting - its unusual to have any light just coming on on its own. CBUS is really very powerful.

I would also add, if you are inclined, you can do all the programming yourself without any issues. No hidden caveats. The only comment being, systems this large become complicated and you can get interesting interactions - its good to have support when this happens.


Chris

 

This is not so much a question of what is good or bad about CBus, rather than who and what you are.

From a simplistic viewpoint, taking a CBus installation, an architect, a CBus integrator, a sparkie, and most importantly the homeowner can agree on what needs to be done, what equipment is required to do it, and have a very high degree of confidence that what is fitted will do what is agreed it should do. It can be maintained over the lifetime of the house by people that were not involved in the original design and installation.

A home automation enthusiast can take a pile of junk and make it do things that would astound most auotmation professionals. But it is the homeowners plaything, and is unlikely to survive the removal of the creator.

Who are you and where do you fit along this continuum?

It may not be the most politic thing to say in a Clipsal owned forum, but Clipsal's kit is not the beginning, middle and end of home automation. Clipsal through CBus provide one solution. Those who have experience of it will tell you that it works dammed well. Clipsal manufacture a range of bits that work together that enable one to build a robust control system for many real world things, such as lights, blinds, sockets etc. And the kit has high WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

There are many other possible solutions.

X10 is also a possible solution, but it is quite different from CBus. It has many drawbacks (in an absolute sense, as opposed to comparing it to CBus), but it does work, and may work well enough for you. I am happy to use it for non-critical stuff, but it doesnt work well enough for me to be considered "trustworthy".

As they say, "your mileage may vary".

 

About Me

Apart from being a homeowner whose house is currently being renovated (a timber, queenslander style house in Brisbane, QLD, Australia), I also have a computing background. Whilst I have never been a programmer as such, I certainly understand the basics of traditional computer programming and still find myself tweaking bits of open source code. So the idea of being able to modify the scenes and control aspects of whatever we end up putting in is of great interest to me. (Separately, I am a part-time e-commerce consultant who currently is playing full-time mum to two wee kiddies).

I am speaking to various "experts", on this matter as many of you have suggested BUT I have not yet made a committment as to the type of technology to install (ie. C-BUS, Dynalite, X10, etc.). What I have had great difficulty with is finding an un-biased "expert". Clearly I'm not going to find that in the Clipsal forum but I have found you all to be quite forthcoming with discussion and that in itself helps.

There is certainly an opportunity out there for people to set up as overall gurus in this field who can ultimately recommend unbiased solutions. My needs may be ideal for C-BUS but someone else's needs may require a mix of other things. It's a bit like what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Without knowing roughly what each technology can do and roughly how much it's going to cost, one can't decide a way forward. Having a computer background means I am very much in favour of standards based technology and struggle to accept proprietary systems.

Separately I have bought and read three of four books on the subject plus done a heap of research on the Net.

So no - I am not a reseller, sparkie, data cabler, etc. - just a mere mortal desperate to take the most future-proofable (not a word but you understand) path with this. To counter this, I am not rich BUT am prepared to spend a bit more than originally budgeted if it means setting a good base from which to build in the future.

Cheers

MJ

 

'Twas actually a rhetorical question You were supposed to work it out...

Although this is a Clipsal sponsored forum, the question of CBus or [something else] is actually a question that shouldn't offend. I think it wont offend because it is my opinion that CBus can hold its own or better against any competing technology of which I'm aware. I think Clipsal probably think that too.

I know about some technololgies.

The only thing "wrong" with CBus is that it is expensive compared to either "ordinary" light switches or X10. In feature and functionality terms, it can hold its own against any competing commercial technology I am aware of. I dont know of any comparable systems that are cheaper. It is particularly homeowner friendly, the software to program up a CBus network is freely available. It is a closed protocol (on the wire), but does have a public facing protocol that is available at no cost (though minor hoop jumping is required) that enables one to interwork with a CBus network.

Another system I know a bit about is EIB, the European Installation Bus. EIB isnt a single company, its a (open-ish) standard that several European manufacturers (biggest being Siemens) make kit for. EIB goes more or less feature for feature with CBus (though always in a different way...), and the only time I priced a comparison up it was a dead heat. But, you need a software package to configure the thing, and that is over 1000USD.

Should you look at EIB? Nope, 'cos you are in Oz, and the switches wont fit Oz sized holes...

There are a several open attempts at home control protocols, but none of them have much if any commercial support, so are relegated to "enthusiast only" products. My favorite amongst these is xAP, in particular a schema called BSC which is intended to control things.

Things you need to remember:

• You will appreciate value long after you have forgotten the price
• Buy cheap, buy twice versus buy once, cry once
• What happens if/when you want to sell your home?

If the argument is CBus versus X10, this has been done many times before, so I'm going to point you to the UKHA archive thread entitled CBus / X10 Opinions please. You might even consider lurking on the list a while, there are many folks of your level of interest there.

Have a look here at what an enthusiast can do with a long bit of number eight fence wire: http://www.blackfirs.com

If you cant make your mind up then what you do is prewire the house for CBus, as well as flood-wiring for Cat5 (and then put in double what you think you need). Wire your lights back to a star point (where the dimmers may go one day) and then run cables back to conventional wall switches. Wiring is cheap and easy when the place is being built, and hard and messy as hell afterwards.

 

It's always a nice topic to discuss because it is how we try to understand what users think of new systems. It always remind me how I tried to tell my company to use computer 15 years ago when it was so expensive and difficult to learn to get the job done. C-Bus is so expensive because it doesn't sell millions of units a month (I guess). As time goes and if it can be popular (or simply "home automation" is popular) It wouldn't be expensive.

The second similar question is why buy a car when we can get home by bike? OK, it is a big difference between bike and car, then why people would spend five or ten times of money to buy a fast good looking sports car? For the function of it?

Put it this way, C-Bus is not for everyone, for now. But more and more people can be the pioneer of home automation. They must have budgets, aims and visions for future. Most clients looks at the "scene" functions, good looking and maybe whole house control because these are basic needs and simple to understand subjects. Of course there must be some other way to do it. But C-bus is more than that. Firstly it is the centralised cabling and make it easiler to add "future" products. Secondly it is the computerised feature. Once your equipments can be controlled with and communicate to computer (even via internet), the expansion ability would be unlimited. Once it becomes popular, with more software, more open code, we maynot believe how much we can do with our lightings, AV, Air-Cond, housework systems.