Vantage to be replaced with C-Bus

I have an client that has an apartment that has been previously wired with Vantage. Due to age failures (hardware) the system needs to be upgraded. The client has asked me to find out if we could change the system to C-Bus.

The Vantage system runs on a single pair very similar to the very first cable the C-Bus originally ran on. Speaking to my local support they are reasonably confident that it should work.
So I am about 80% confident that the conversion should work.

Has anyone here had experience with a vantage conversion!

 

I am currently looking at DALI systems to partially replace CBUS and to then have a CBUS gateway to DALI. I am suggesting this because of the inherent issues with LED specifications and variations in the marketplace which caps the performance of CBUS. The other reason is that you may be able to convert the twin wire system in a DALI compatible wall plate with less bother. As CBUS seems to prefer the original Cat 5 pink cable.

My issues are not with CBUS as I am very happy with the technology. My problems are with the limitations of LED products. To overcome some of those limitations you would want to evaluate the DALI dimming capability to see if the performance is closer to what you are expecting for the final result. I find LED drivers claiming to be CBUS capable have a gunshot hit-miss success rate. Admittedly, a consumer LED driver will cost $10 and a DALI driver for the same function can be $60 to $180 each.

Then comes other problems with the dreaded LED flicker and I am looking at products such as these
http://www.gayrad.com.au/filters.html

I have tried load correction devices
http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Files/Brochures/A0000268.pdf

Clipsal couldnt confirm if this filter would help
http://www.clipsal.com/Trade/Products/ProductDetail?CatNo=970MF20

I agree with you that conversion would work. But conversion comes with other issues caused by mediocre lighting products. You will notice that the Vantage lights come with their own drivers for most of the circuits. It really depends on how the client feels they can improve the installation with CBUS and overcome some of issues associated with various LED brands.

If you add the cost of premium LED fittings to the normal CBUS circuits, then DALI is actually cheaper.

 

Hi tobex
If you are thinking of using DALI LED light fittings in a home I don't think you will find they are cheap, common or readily available.

DALI sales people will say it can be cheaper due to simplified wiring arrangement but I think that is about as valid as Clipsal claiming CBus can reduce wiring lengths vs conventional wiring, eg unlikely.

I've used DALI in a home with CBus and there is a lot of good things about it but there is also some problems.

Pushbutton dimming ramp integration from CBus DALI interface is no where near as smooth as CBus phase dimmers.
It's almost unusable, well not quite that bad but not nice for sure and takes some tinkering to get it to mildly acceptable.
Scenes going to a level are no problem though.

If you didn't have DALI fittings in the original installation you are going to have to completely rewire every light fitting as well.
Usually incorporating a proprietary 5 pin DALI plug and cabling system which may or may not be around forever (personal experience).

If you wire a house most effectively for DALI it can save a stack of cabling for sure.
But then you are locked to DALI unless you want to rewire again.
The savings in switch board real estate are huge because you can have 128 dimmed channels controlled by a 4 module CBus interface plus 2 for DALI power supplies.
That is a huge plus for using DALI with CBus.

When a DALI light fitting fails it takes service to a whole new level since you have to address each new light fitting before it will work.
You can't just plug a new fitting and expect it to work.
Probably make a few other changes to things like power loss resume state, min max settings and DALI network failure action as well.

CBus DALI interface is probably never going to be compatible with the latest DALI specification which includes colour control so that is a definite minus for choosing CBus interface with DALI.

If the lights in a home which need to be dimmed include LED oyster lights I would look at DALI for that.
Even so they are going to be pretty high end fittings.
Or even better consider ditching the dimming and use a relay channel.

I think moving to DALI in an existing home is going to require extensive rewiring, limit your selection of light fittings, massively increase light fitting costs, double the total programming requirements compared to just CBus and make things even more difficult than finding CBus compatible dimming LED's.

In Australia and NZ Pierlite supplies excellent LED downights with CBus dimmer specs.
They are not even that expensive.
Certainly not compared to rewiring a house for DALI.

 

Thanks for the deep appraisal.

I have noticed a number of new DALI capable drivers which are load matched for LED direct connection and can take the place of consumer driver.

Some of the more decent LED lights (lamp and driver) are capable of dimming down to below 5% are well over $100 each. From my perspective those are the real thing. The low end ones bottom out at 20% and won't go lower.

However I was more concerned about stability of the light itself under dimming conditions. For some reason this appears to be an issue in areas where the off-peak signal or electric motors can buck the waveform of the dimmer and cause issues.

 

Hi tobex
Every LED I have installed in the last few years comes with a matched driver in the box.
I just wouldn't bother putting an LED bulb in with an old transformer.
Not for CBus or anything else, particularly if it is on a dimmer.
For conventional wired homes I often have to change the dimmer mech and yes some brands don't have very low dimming levels.

I haven't had any trouble with very low levels on the Pierlite LED's or ripple signal problems on both types of CBus DIN rail dimmers.
If the Pierlite LED's you like the look of have specs for your CBus dimmer and you follow them I am sure you can use them confidently.

I like these for something similar to a halogen downlight.
http://www.pierlite.com/au/87173/starburst-crystal-eco#.WP6GztqGNaQ
Dimming to 0% for the CBus DIN rail dimmers which is actually lower than you ever would want.
I've only used Gen 1 but Gen 2 version is quite powerful.
If you hunt around you might be pleasantly surprised at the cost.

Previously I had a signal noise complaint with a ceiling fan and did talk to that filter company.
It seems they provide some good solutions but it has to be tailored to the local frequency used and that's where my plans ground to a halt

 

When I evaluated lighting for homes with 12-15 foot ceilings, the cost of LED fittings went up quite a bit. The amount of heat dissipation required for 13W (or higher) LED output was significant and the types of lighting modules needed were borderline works of art (very well made and super expensive).

I am curious about DALI driven LED drivers such as these;

http://www.pierlite.com/au/92160/diginet-dali-led-driver#.WP6LhdqGOUk

https://www.golights.com.au/driver-13w-to-suit-deep-90-downlight-dali-domus-lighting



I agree with you that lighting sales will have to move towards "mix and match" where I can select the

* colour of fitting
* CRI
* diffusion glass
* angle of light
* power output
* dimming range
* cutout size
* driver type (DALI, data bus of some kind, CBUS friendly)

The lighting industry (for LED lights) has fallen off a cliff and moved away from customer driven options and favoured labour saving options, where the goods are finished packed overseas and shipped here as a bundle.While bundling is profitable for the importer, it is not that much cheaper for the tradesman or DIY as the prices do not always reflect at the cash register.

I have seen powerful database software and think there is something wrong with current sales brochures. The sales systems need an overhaul.

[LINK BELOW] I find this style of fitting very dated and the low CRI of many LED light fittings does not flatter the space where the lamps are used.

https://www.golights.com.au/led-dow...-white-or-silver-in-10w-or-13w-domus-lighting


Small rant here
------------------
As an aside, I also noticed that the high-end constant current drivers I bought 10 years ago have "faded" quite badly and now only output as much light as a driver rated for 2/3 the spec originally installed. The issue here being that 10-15 years down the road we will see a large number of LED lights being thrown out where only the driver needs to be replaced and not the lamp, but because of cost, it wont be viable to save the LED from being thrown out.

LED lights contain rare earth metals. These rare earth metals will be in very high demand for battery manufacture and it is likely this period in history will the cheapest for LED manufacture. Once the battery companies start making bespoke batteries for special applications the demand for rare earth metals will skyrocket.

 

Hi tobex
Maybe you don't want to hear this but I think 3-5 years is what to expect for the whole LED fitting.
I've tried new drivers on some failed early Pierlite LED fittings since that was the failure in every case.
The LED output was quite degraded and not really worth leaving them in.
I've come to think I don't want an electronic power supply of any type in a ceiling space for more than 10 years.

There is definitely a valid argument about resource consumption but as far as power usage goes and maintenance over their lifespan I think LED's make an OK case for themselves financially.
Hopefully there is room for improvement with cost and longevity.
My latest Pierlite LED's were 1/3 the cost of the originals.

My main point is that you can buy LED downlights which will work nicely on CBus phase dimmers and at least have options other than DALI.

I'm not inclined to think DALI LED power supplies will be any better for longevity in a equivalent price range.
Then there are the matters of completely rewiring to suit, programming complexity, maintenance and operational glitches with CBus dimming ramps.

 

I think the points you raise are valid and much of the benefit comes from the original CBUS design. I have seen some very complex installs made trivial to service by the elegance of the original design, excellent failure isolation, good ventilation, good protection from heat and excellent void access. It comes down to how well versed the original installer is. Never mind the fact that I have seen electricians walk off the job just looking at the blueprints and not even getting to the stage of repairs and planning for failure. If the stated Vantage system was installed by an expert, the service and replacement aspects should be a walk in the park.

It depends if the appropriate cabling can be installed for the preferred wall plates. For this reason the DALI option is interesting not for the lights (as the lights usually have a void) but rather for the wall plates.


For the possibility of being more reliable. I had a look at this

http://www.meanwelldirect.co.uk/pro...Supply-with-Dali-Dimming/LCM-25DA/default.htm

I really like the meanwell DIN rail PS for 5000CN. Was really easy to tweak to exactly 12V under load. Will have a go at this DALI option soon.