UK led downlights

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by fatso, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. fatso

    fatso

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    Hi, Ive been doing a little bit of testing with my universal dimmer and some Led downlights, mainly the Enlite E8 downlights and Integral GU10 lamps, both perform and dim really well down to about 30%.
    The problem im getting is when they are at full load they are in Leading edge mode with the steady orange light when they are dimmed the Orange light starts flashing suggesting an overload, now the lights dont cut out and still dim and work perfectly continuously but the orange light remains flashing, has anyone had this problem? Can the universal dimmer be forced manually into leading/trailing edge modes?
    Also anyone got any advice on uk compatible Led downlights.
     
    fatso, Oct 22, 2017
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  2. fatso

    DarylMc

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    Hi
    How many of the LED lamps in question were connected when you had the flashing channel indicator LED?
    There is a general guideline posted by many LED manufacturers not to exceed the equivalent halogen light output equivalent on a dimmer channel.
    eg absolute max of 10 per channel.
    That doesn't mean they will work but I have found for lack of proper data it is a good place to start.

    I tried 2 x 18W LED oysters in my office on a single channel of a universal dimmer.
    There was some problems.
    The lights would glow in the off state.
    Occasionally the oyster lights would not turn on and channel indicator was flashing orange suggesting overload of channel.

    I added Clipsal 31LCDA to the channel and it fixed both those issues.
    It will almost certainly fix the off state flickering or glowing issue.
    If you had to do that for a number of channels it could get quite expensive and still there would be no guarantee it would work well or be a good idea for the long term.

    If Pierlite products are available in the UK I can certainly recommend them and they have specs for CBus dimmers.
    https://www.pierlite.com/uk/87173/starburst-crystal-eco#.We0fM2j-laQ
    These will work beautifully, turn off properly and dim to zero.
    Other people may have suggestions for products which they have used in the UK.

    I wouldn't be locked to using GU10 bulbs and think you may find what you are looking for in an integrated downlight fitting with built in or external power supply unit.
    Preferably with some specs for your dimmer.

    Universal dimmer does not allow you to select leading or trailing edge operation.
    In my experience it is going run on trailing edge for LED lamps.
    The lamps you select should be compatible with trailing edge dimmers at the very least.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2017
    DarylMc, Oct 22, 2017
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  3. fatso

    NickD Moderator

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    A couple of points..

    1) Steady orange is actually Trailing Edge mode, which is what you would expect for an electronic load like an LED

    2) The flashing orange overload condition normally comes about because the overload has caused the dimmer to overheat, which results in the dimmer reducing its conduction angle (on time) to reduce the temperature. The supervising processor detects that the conduction is less than expected and flashes the error condition.

    The actual conduction is measured by looking at the current drawn by the load, which for normal loads is directly related to the voltage, but for LEDs can be very different depending on the LED design.

    It's possible that it's working fine, and the LED is just drawing all of it's current early in the cycle, causing the processor to think that the dimmer has wound back.

    Do you know what level this starts happening at? Does the brightness actually increase above this level? If not you can just set the maximum level in the dimmer to not go above this.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Oct 23, 2017
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  4. fatso

    DarylMc

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    Hello Nick
    Thanks for the correction.
    I will edit my post which was 100% mixed up re leading or trailing edge.

    Thanks also for the info regarding the flashing orange.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2017
    DarylMc, Oct 23, 2017
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  5. fatso

    NickD Moderator

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    Actually I was correcting the OP :) I didn't pick up on yours if it was mixed up!

    Nick
     
    NickD, Oct 24, 2017
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  6. fatso

    DarylMc

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    I got in and fixed it :)
    31LCDA seems to have helped stop the channel indicator occasionally flashing orange too.
    While the indicator was flashing orange the LED lamps were not illuminated.
    Is that the expected overload condition?
     
    DarylMc, Oct 24, 2017
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  7. fatso

    NickD Moderator

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    Not really.

    There are 2 parts to it.

    The dimmer channel is autonomous.. it gets given a control level by the supervising processor and that it. The dimmer channel decides whether it should be in leading or trailing edge mode.

    The supervising processor send the levels to each channel and monitors the operation of each channel.

    When the processor sees the actual conduction is less than expected, it displays the overload error code but it doesn't change the drive to the channel, so the load shouldn't be off in this situation.

    The dimming channel itself will keep reducing the conduction as long as the temperature is too high, but I don't think it should ever go as far as turning off completely (because at some point it should cool down enough to stabilise).

    There is a different error code which is flashing orange/green which indicates a severe overload (like a short circuit). If the dimming channel encounters this is shuts down within a half cycle or two to protect itself. The supervising processor will see this and attempt to restart the channel a couple of times.

    If it fails it will then flash the orange/green code and wait for the user to intervene. You will sometimes see this as the lights turning off and on again if a lamp fails on a multi-lamp circuit, or also if there is a large transient on the mains.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Oct 24, 2017
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  8. fatso

    DarylMc

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    Thanks Nick
    I will definitely reference that info if it happens again.
     
    DarylMc, Oct 24, 2017
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