Strange trigger command sent from PACA/PICED

I have a strange situation at an install which has be struggling to work out the fix.
After a recent Minder failure I have installed a PACA unit to look after logic and scenes/schedules etc. (Currently running PICED on an always on PC to wok out all bugs etc before I download to the PACA)

I have most things sorted however one is proving to be difficult to fix.

I have a Bus coupler connected to the house alarm so when the house security is armed it triggers a scene to turn off all lights within the house.

The Bus coupler is in the trigger control application group which when set to 255 activates a scene to turn off multiple lights etc.
It is connected to a dry contact in the alarm so when alarm is armed, contact is closed and when alarm disarmed the contact is open.

The problem is that for some reason a hallway occupancy sensor on the lighting group changes the state of the bus coupler.
eg when alarm is disarmed the LED on the bus coupler goes off, but when the occupancy sensor detects movement the LED goes back on. This means for the next cycle of alarm on/off the trigger group does not work.

I have ran the diagnostic utility and the only thing out of the ordinary I get is a
ctrl: Group 0 Scene Indicator Kill when the occupancy sensor detects movement.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?
Cheers
Jason.

 

It sounds like you have both the sensor and bus coupler set to the same trigger group. Scenes in the same trigger group are mutually exclusive. i.e. when one triggers it cancels all the others.


You might want to read this:

http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439&highlight=heck+scenes

The solution is to create a new trigger group for the bus coupler.

 

Ashley,
Definitely not the same trigger group. Was the 1st thing I checked.
In fact the sensor is on the lighthing application and the coupler is in the trigger application and both have their own unique groups.

I did some more reading and it looks like something to do with the scene I set by the bus coupler is being "broken" but I have no idea how to fix.
IE.
User arms the alarm
Multiple groups ramp to 0% including hallway lights
User walks past hallway occupancy sensor and turns hallway lights back on.
ctrl: Group 0 Scene Indicator Kill is sent on the network and now next cycle of disarm/arm the alarm the scene doesn't work.

Jason.

 

How is the bus coupler set up? Is it one that supports scenes, or have you just set the application to the trigger group. If so, what functions have you set up in the keys and blocks tab? Where is the scene set up?

Also, what unit is transmitting the Indicator Kill command.

 

Ashley,

It is an older bus coupler so doesn't support the settings of scenes it self.

So I just have a trigger group running a scene stored on the PAC.
I have tried all different block setups including the default, On/Off, Bell Press with basically the same results.
Below is a capture of the traffic when it happens.

Bus Coupler being triggered and sending the Trigger On
10:43:00 Rx : 05C4CA007900F4<CR>
10:43:00 Rx : = Ctrl: Grp 0 On (FF)

PAC sending out the various group offs.
10:43:01 Rx : 05023800012D012301250117011801150134010AC2<CR>
10:43:01 Rx : = GA 45 Off; GA 35 Off; GA 37 Off; GA 23 Off; GA 24 Off; GA 21 Off; GA 52 Off; GA 10 Off
10:43:01 Rx : 050238000103010E010F010601020100011001166B<CR>
10:43:01 Rx : = GA 3 Off; GA 14 Off; GA 15 Off; GA 6 Off; GA 2 Off; GA 0 Off; GA 16 Off; GA 22 Off
10:43:01 Rx : 05023800010D010C010801050107011F0122010447<CR>
10:43:01 Rx : = GA 13 Off; GA 12 Off; GA 8 Off; GA 5 Off; GA 7 Off; GA 31 Off; GA 34 Off; GA 4 Off
10:43:02 Rx : 0502380001130114011C0132011B2C<CR>
10:43:02 Rx : = GA 19 Off; GA 20 Off; GA 28 Off; GA 50 Off; GA 27 Off

User walking past the occupancy sensor and light turning on
10:43:04 Rx : 05143800790234<CR>
10:43:04 Rx : = GA 2 On
10:43:04 Rx : 051438000202FFAC<CR>
10:43:04 Rx : = GA 2 Set to 100%

PAC then sending out the Scene kill command
10:43:04 Rx : 0502CA00090026<CR>
10:43:04 Rx : = Ctrl: Grp 0 Scene Indicator Kill


For now I have removed the Light from the scene but I am keen to know how a scene being broken on a PAC is causing an issue on the bus coupler and trigger group.
Thanks
Jason.

 

I believe what you are seeing is expected behaviour...

Scene indicator kill that the pac is sending out would simply be updating the status indicator that is stating the scene is active to saying its no longer active, due to a load within the scene no longer being 'set' by the scene...

I could be wrong though...

Test it by triggering the scene but then turning one of those loads in the scene on by a local switch.. Log it and see if it does the same thing...

Then set the bus coupler to a timer for 3 seconds and you should be set to overcome the initail issue you reported..

 

Roosta,
You are right. I have confirmed that by turning any of the loads set to 0% by the scene does in fact cause the same commend to be sent on the network saying the "Scene is broken"
A good idea with the timer to delay the scene being set till after the person walks past the occupancy sensor. I will give that a try.

The thing I still cant understand is why the scene kill command is causing issues with the coupler.

Basically if the scene kill command is sent the coupler requires a off/on/off cycle from the alarm panel to get the scene working again.

Next step is to replace the coupler and see what happens.

 

Ok next test that i would do myself would be to log the system and see what the bus coupler is actually doing during that on-off-on-off cycle of the security system where it misses the retrigger of the scene.. To see if it is indeed changing state as expected and pac is not responding or vice versa...

Out of interest are you doing just an off scene when the security gets armed, or are you also doing an on scene when the security is disarmed?

 

I'm not really sure how the old bus coupler will handle the Scene Kill command. It's seems odd that it is setting the group to ON though. The easiest solution is to probably just set the bus coupler back to the lighting application, create an 'Alarm State' ga and set the bus coupler to a bell press. Then just write a single line of logic to trigger the scene when the 'Alarm State' ga turns on.

 

Roosta,
I did as you suggested and the coupler appears to be doing its job correctly.
House has 2 alarm areas hence the 2 trigger zones on channels 1 and 2 of the bus coupler.

Consistently was getting the following commands on arm/disarm.

Alarm Disarm
15:28:24 Rx : 05C4CA00010101006A<CR>
15:28:24 Rx : = Ctrl: Grp 1 Off (0); Ctrl: Grp 0 Off (0)

Alarm Arm
15:56:26 Rx : 05C4CA00790179007A<CR>
15:56:26 Rx : = Ctrl: Grp 1 On (FF); Ctrl: Grp 0 On (FF)

At this stage only have a arm scene and trying to get that working. The disarm scene will require some logic written due to turning different lights on at different times of the day etc.

Ashley,
I will give what you suggested a try and change it back to the lighting group and see what happens. It seems the kill command doesn't turn the trigger group back on, it just makes the coupler ignore the next state change so therefore needs a arm/disarm cycle from the alarm for it to work properly again.

From what you are saying do the newer bus couplers supports scenes directly form the coupler?
I may end up just ordering a new coupler if that is the case.

Thanks
Jason

 

The current bus coupler (5104BCL) is basically a 4 button Neo/Saturn switch in a different case, so supports scenes, 4 switches and 4 virtual groups.

Given you have a PAC and need to write logic anyway, it's really just as easy to stick with what you have and get the bus coupler to set lighting groups and pick them up in logic. You can easily set one GA to four different values using ON, OFF recall 1 and recall 2.

 

Ashley/Roosta,
Thanks for all the help. By moving it from the trigger group to the lighting group it has fixed all the problems and the PAC no longer sends the scene kill command.
I am sure at some stage I tried moving it to the lighting group and tested but now it appears to be working fine.
Thanks
Jason.