Security Sensor

Can the Clipsal 5751 C-Bus PIR Sensor be intergrated into a security system, as well as being used to control automated lighting and exhaust fan control the sensor to trigger the security system and the security company to know which zone has been triggered. What security system would also be recommended to interface with the C-Bus.

Thanks
Steve

 

The M1 is the best panel to use for this purpose, however I would set it up in reverse; have the security sensor trigger the light etc.

 

Thanks Peter,

Would ths mean that I wouldn't use the Clipsal sensor but instead use a standard generic PIR?

 

We have used this setup in a number of installations and have found no problems.

If the primary function is to be a security sensor and the secondary function is to switch the lights etc this is they way to go.

Just remember you need to use a security panel that can talk to C-Bus i.e. Ness M1 or Concept 4000.

You will find the M1 is a better panel when it comes to 'home automation' control.

 

Thanks for the assistance, after some thought the need for dual purpose sensos in the ensuite and bathroom may never happen, the ajoining rooms will have PIR's for the security system anyway.

Steve

 

Steve,

If I was designing your system I would use a C-Bus sensor in the bathroom and not a security sensor.

Why - because if you use a security sensor you will find that you will have an extra 1-2 second delay in the lights turning on as it has to be processed by the security system and then passed on to C-Bus.

And as it is a bathroom it's not the kind of room that you are likely to protect with a security PIR, a window reed will be sufficient.

So the primary function would be for lights and not security.

 

PIR's - security or lighting

There are some very important differences between the two types of detector. Yes they are PIR, yes they pick up movement and yes they do something when movement is detected. However, the use, placement and technology is very different.

For a security sensor the unit is connected directly to the security panel and is monitored 24/7 by End of Line resistor circuit. A C-Bus movement sensor is not monitored in any way (as it doesn't need to be) other than action on messages the unit may send.

The other very important point is placement. You place a security sensor in a location to maximise coverage area and ideally look to cross over to common or corridor areas, to mamimise security coverage. This is the last thing you want for lighting control. Imagine walking down a hallway past three rooms and turning on the lights in the rooms because the security sensors were correctly placed to crossover common areas. For lighting control you want threshold detection ie, you should be able to walk right up to the open doorway of a room and not trigger the "lighting" movement sensor until you actually step foot inside the room in question.

Hallways are one location where the two type of sensors may meet. THe other point mentioned was lag time. If you have a sensor in a bathroom or bedroom hallway for night time use, one or two seconds lag time is too long. eg. Security system sensor picks up movement (possibly after pulse count etc) then triggers aux (low or high level) to C-Bus, C-Bus message on the bus, because this function is almost always associated with dimmed lights there is also a lag in the time of the lights to illuminate. Add all this together and you have slipped on the soap the kids left on the bathroom floor, grabbed the towel rail and broken it off the wall, and fallen head first into the bath tub, - now with the lights on you can see the blood from your fresh head wound getting all over your favourite Holden Racing Team PJ's.

PS, movement sensors don't work in bedrooms, so don't even try. Not even with the best logic known to man (often coded by PSC - apparently).

Movement sensors work very well in bedroom corridors, bathrooms, toilets etc. Logic which gives different dim levels at different times of the night is the icing on the cake.

 

Who mentioned bedrooms???

 

Is the problem of sensors in bedrooms one of picking up sleep movements and puting unwanted lights on -if so could this be overcome by sampling over a (short) time or is the whole idea impractical?

 

Have never done it but yes this would be the case.

Impractical - because when you do want the lights to come on you don't want sampling - remember the favourite HRT PJ's

 

I dont want to derail this thread but because I had a desire to put sensors in all rooms for "background" light control is it practical perhaps to have sampling/ramping arrangement whereby each time based movement increases light intensity . If the movement stops then the lights ramp down.
The way I see it is that lifestyle convenience is a 24/7 issue and security would not be comprimised as there is something where otherwise there would be nothing.

 

In my experience, too much "automation" (of the kind where things come on automagically) is asking for trouble.

It is fine in your OWN house, since you can fiddle around and tweak things as required. But for a client's house, it's only good if you are charging for the call backs.

Our company spends a fair amount of time fixing up "control systems" in commercial environments. The first thing we usually do is diable all the convoluted occupancy and daylight switches. Then we provide local MANUAL controls, a master OFF control and some retrigger timers for people who stay back after work. The first person in turns the lights on, the last out switches them off.

I realise that a home is somewhat different, but in many ways a person's house needs to be far more flexible than a plain old commercial office space where exactly the same thing happens every single (working) day of the year

 

Noted John
Perhaps selection to go from "manual" to "auto" if you want to justify paying sqillions for it would be considered