Remote Updates

Hi All,

I'd like to ask your experiences with remote updates to Colour Touch Screens, and experiences with Toolkit via Wiser.

The reason for this is that I do not have a very happy time with this.

Products in question are:

Wiser V1.5 (white) and V1 (black)
6,4 inch Colour Touch Screen V2 and V3

Software and firmware is all up to date.

My situation is as follows:

Wiser access works well, no matter if via android, i-.. or PC, local or remote.
Remote updates to Wiser work fine
Remote access to the network (Toolkit) works so, so.
Remote update to Colour Touch does not work.

Local Toolkit access via PCI works perfect (network is fine)
Local Toolkit access via Wiser (over Wifi) works, but slower than PCI.
Local update of Colour Touch via Wiser (Wifi) works o.k.

Back to the items which don't work...
Toolkit remote via Wiser is extremely slow, and does more often than not detect component count incorrectly and also bombs out often enough.

Update attempts to Colour Touch (via Wiser), find the Colour Touch correctly, but do not draw the status of the unit, and do not open the field (right field of transfer utility) to start the update. Instead an "unexpected connection error" is returned every time.
It is worse when trying to connect to the Colour Touch without searching via Wiser.

It seems to me that there is a port comm missing, which reports back from the Colour Touch.
I have done all the ports listed in the Wiser Manual, plus 8081, which I came across in the Programmers Manual. 8081 made no difference to the situation.
I believe that I have made all settings in the project of each unit, including passwords and allow remote update, but I may have missed something

So, has anyone had success updating the Colour Touch, if so, did you find that some settings which are perhaps tucked away deeply in the manuals, which need to be done?

I can still add that I tried different internet connections to rule out ISP specific troubles.

Any ideas to solve this will be welcome.

 

I have this problem as well. Connecting to the network through the Wiser while off-site consistently doesn't load all network units.

Also onsite, the connecting locally via the Wiser results in a much slower load rate than using a PCI. I mentioned this to someone on the tech support line and they said it should be just as fast...

 

Hi Robbo,

Thank you for the feedback. I take it then as confirmed that remote servicing of the network is a bit of a shaky business.

Could I ask if anyone has success updating 6,4 inch colour touch screens remotely?

Thank you.

 

I am interested in what you mean by this? A CTC can only be updated via ethernet and have nothing to do with the Wiser I am pretty sure?

A B&W or Spectrum can be updated via C-Bus and therefore through a CNI but it isn't recommended, is very slow and is a bit of a pain.

I have a couple of sites that we can do remote updates to the CTC but for that to work you will need to set up port forwarding on your router (Port 8336). Make sure you have your remote connection settings in 'Project Details' 'Internet' Tab correct.

 

I have successfully updated colour touchscreens and wiser projects remotely on numerous occasions..

 

The most common error I've made when doing remote update to Colour Touch (CTC) via Wiser is forgetting that the CTC's gateway would need to be set to be the Wiser if doing it this way. This is in the 3rd party router at the front configuration.

If you don't set it this way, what will happen is that PICED transfer client connects to the Wiser, it then asks the Wiser to find all CTCs on the Wiser's LAN, Wiser finds them and then reports them back to transfer client, then transfer client tells Wiser to setup the port forward to perform the update, then transfer client starts pushing the data through but never gets any response because the CTCs will reply to their gateway which is some other device. Hope that makes sense.

 

Thank you for all the replies. Let me take it from the top:

JBoer, You are quite correct in what you say, but the CTC can be updated via wiser, when both devices are on the same network. When going in via the update client, you have the choice of searching via Wiser, or directly.
I have no issues doing any updates when on site, and thus on the relevant network. Also port 8336 is port forwarded per manual. And yep, I wouldn't consider updating B&W over the C-Bus network.
Another option is to have a local PC, running all the software, and connecting to it via something like TeamViewer. Works perfectly.

Roosta,
Thank you for the info. So it must work...

Kjayakumar,
Thank you for that. This helps me with a bit of insight, and explains what is happening.
I will have to look into this in more detail, BUT i do not understand what you mean by
" the CTC's gateway would need to be set to be the Wiser if doing it this way. This is in the 3rd party router at the front configuration."
Particularly that it needs to be set in the 3rd party router. That router is the gateway, as far as the local network is concerned, if I understand correctly. I can't see where I would define a gateway in the "gateway router"

If I look into the setup possibilities in Piced for the CTC and go to the Internet tab, I find fields for a proxy, which I left blank. Is this correct?
The remote connection has the DYN details, port 8336 and the password.
Then there is a field for the static IP, which is the one assigned to the CTC.
Are these settings correct?

The only other place I can think of is the port forwarding, which is set in the 3rd party router, and those ports are all set to the Wiser IP.
All means: 8888,8889,8336,8337,8080,80, and I also set 8081.

How would things work if I elect not to search CTCs via Wiser in the transfer client? How would the port forwarding need to be set?

Could you please clarify this? I am especially at a loss when you say the "CTCs gateway".

 

Fair enough regarding the Wiser acting as middle man...

If you are to go to network settings on the CTC (The CTC it self and not PICED) and select Static IP. You will find the fields: IP, Subnet Mask and Gateway.

Your IP you should already have set, as should the Subnet mask, (if not 255.255.255.0 should be what you need) But you will need to get the gateway to be the Wisers LAN address so that all requests get sent to it first.

 

Hi Jboer,

Aha! Thank you. Haven't thought about that. Will set that as soon as I am back on site and see if that works.

 

No go...

Well, this issue seems to be a tricky one.

I have been back on site to change the gateway IP on the Touch Screen, but unfortunately there is no change to the situation at all.

So I would appreciate it if I could get some more ideas.

Thanks in advance

 

After more testing, for the benefit of all, these are my conclusions.

Remote update of Wiser and CTS works, but has some limitations, if I have not missed something:

1. You cannot update the CTS via Wiser. There is no feedback from the CTS, no matter how it is set up between the main router, Wiser and the CTS.

2. I find I have to set up Wiser and main router as per manual, then I can update Wiser.

3. To update CTS, I have to access the main router and change port forwarding of 8336 to the CTS IP, and set the CTS gateway IP to main router.

Note that while 3. is in place, Wiser cannot be updated. Therefore that has to be reverted once done with the CTS.

An issue I found is that while apparently it should be possible to change port 8336 on the CTS to another, this has no effect. CTS will only accept comms via 8336. I tried various other ports and set up the configs accordingly. This is a similar issue as found on Wiser with the remote access.
Port changing doesn't work.
If it did, one could set up CTS to be updated without looking for it via Wiser, via it's own port. But since both Wiser and CTS rely unchangably on 8336, and since Wiser does not seem to be able to segregate itself from CTS, this common port arrangement doesn't work.

Once again, I may very well have missed something, but if not, then I would ask Schneider to sort out the port issues of Wiser and CTS, so either product can be accessed and updated remotely without the need to access and change port forwarding on the main router.

Lastly, any advise and comment is welcome. Perhaps Roosta, you can confirm the above, since you seem to update CTS remotely as well?

 

Indeed what you says makes sense.. I have never had an installation with both a wiser and ctc requiring remote updates.. I will set it up at home and see if I get the same results as you have..

 

I am able to update a colour touchscreen behind a Wiser fine. I have used both configurations, ie: Scenario A: Wiser as the main router. Scenario B: Wiser as a gateway behind a primary router.
In both scenarios, you rhave to ensure your CTC has its gateway set to the Wiser. As I mentioned before, the most common mistake is that the CTC's gateway is set to the primary router and thus traffic never gets back to the Wiser.

You may find that it will be really helpful to your debug of your setup if you write down all the IP address, subnet mask, gateway settings for the involved devices. Wireshark is also a good friend for understanding these scenarios.

 

Thank you both for your replies.

Roosta,
I'll be very interested to hear if you are successful.

kjayakumar,
I have definitely set up the CTS gateway setting pointing to the Wiser, but it makes no difference, i.e. there is no info coming back. But let me ask if there is a setting which needs to be done, besides the one in CTS's "networking"? I find no other place to set the gateway....
When doing the "stand alone" update, i.e. not via Wiser, I need to point it to the main router of course, and that works fine. But it is the only way it works.

I have set it up at my house, even using the same passwords on the CTS as on the Wiser, and can't get an update through Wiser.

What ports do you forward? Besides those documented in the Wiser Instructions I also forwarded 8081, as I came across that in one of the other manuals. There are other ports mentioned as well (I think 8334?) but I don't need them for the direct update.

I will try again later, but I am afraid this will be a repeat of the many attempts I've done over the last few days...

Besides all the above, I still would like to see the port assignment (8336) which can be changed in Piced for the CTS to be actually effective. That would not only make sense, but also allow users to choose if they want to go through Wiser or not.

 

As this is nagging me, I have gone through the exercise again.

My conclusion remains that it is not possible to update both units via wiser. Not if you don't make changes to the main router as described in an earlier post.

So the only way is to update CTS directly, i.e. do not tick "search for CTS via Wiser" in the transfer utility.

To circumvent the issue with port 8336, you need a router which allows asymmetric port forwarding, and set for CTS update:
external port: your choice, internal 8336, and point to CTS
Set CTS gateway to main router.
8081 can be done symmetrically and pointed to CTS.

Happy Christmas!

Don't know why I didn't thing of that earlier.

 

From the 3rd party router, I forward the normal ports, 8080 (for web), 8888 (for C-Bus), 10001 (for CNI), 8336/8337/9000/9001 (for Wiser project transfer and CTC transfer) to the Wiser. I went through your posts and I didn't see 9000/9001 mentioned so I suspect that's the problem. I checked the installation manual, http://updates.clipsal.com/clipsalonline/Files/Brochures/W0001133.pdf, page 40 and all of those are listed except for 9000, 9001 probably because that's specific to CTC behind Wiser. Here's a reference that might be helpful:
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5888.html
"

(A)
1. Start the 'Colour C-Touch Transfer Utility' and select 'Remote Connection'.
2. Enter the URL or IP address and password. The password is the wiser project password and not the CTC project password.
3. The port number that the wiser is listening on is 8336.
4. The client side router will need to allow this port or map an external port to 8336. If you map an external port use this new mapped number in the transfer utility.
5. Select 'Search for CTC's via the Wiser' and then select 'Auto Search'.
6. The wiser will do the hard yards looking for CTC's and you'll get the a list of units it can find on its local network.
7. When you select the one you want to program, the transfer utility will attempt to connect to the wiser on ports 9000 and 9001. The client side router will need to allow these 2 ports. The wiser then maps these ports through to the CTC.

(B)
1. Start the 'Colour C-Touch Transfer Utility' and select 'Remote Connection'.
2. Enter the URL or IP address and password. The password is the wiser project password and not the CTC project password.
3. The port number that the wiser is listening on is 8336.
4. The client side router will need to allow this port or map an external port to 8336. If you map an external port use this new mapped number in the transfer utility.
5. Select 'Search for CTC's via the Wiser' and then select 'Fixed IP'.
6. You'll need to know the CTC's address on its local network and enter this.
7. When you click ok the transfer utility will attempt to connect to the CTC through the wiser at the local IP address. The transfer utility will attempt to connect to the wiser on ports 9000 and 9001. The client side router will need to allow these 2 ports. The wiser then maps these ports through to the CTC. If its not there or ports aren't available you'll get a fail message.
"

If you still hit a problem, I would highly recommend using wireshark (on the PC that's running the transfer client) and wiresharking the connection. You should see outgoing connection attempts and the traffic to/from the Wiser over the internet.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday Season.

 

Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated.

I have read the referred post and right at the end the conclusion is that there is a problem with wiser not forwarding ports 9000&9001 correctly when not connected to the wan port.

That would mean that it cannot work in a setup where a third party router is used.
However, that post is almost 3 years old. Has this issue been resolved?

I am asking because I have packed away my test setup for the holidays....

Have a good holiday too.

 

Matty wrote "It turns out there is a problem with the port forwarding routine when the wiser is configured in LAN mode. The wiser seems to reject the remote connection from the transfer utility if the connection is not through the WAN side.". I think this was due to some confusion about the details of how port forwarding works on a LAN mode Wiser. When you have a Wiser in LAN mode, it is actually intended to behave as a LAN device, ie: just a single interface and no port forwarding to other devices. In this specific case, you also want it to behave as a WAN device (ie: a gateway to port forward traffic to/from the CTCs) so you have to plug a ethernet cable into the Wiser's WAN port and provide a valid connection for it so that it can port forward traffic correctly. I hope that makes sense.

 

Thank you,

I have to admit that I do not follow this train of thought. If you have to connect a cable into the WAN port and make a valid connection, I assume that this means that you connect a modem to the Wiser directly. That would be a different option, and I am not sure how many of these would be found out in the field.

But apart from that, I remembered that I have a site where I pointed the CTS to the Wiser. I have made the port forwarding changes to the main router to include 9000 and 9001, both also pointing to Wiser, as for all other ports mentioned above.
Unfortunately, no luck. The "unexpected connection failure" still rears it's ugly head.

Not a problem though as I have a solution as described above, which I like more in any case.

 

I can see how it isn't easy to understand. However, to be clear I'm not saying you have to connect the Wiser's WAN ethernet port to a modem. I'm saying the WAN port just needs to have a valid connection. That's so that the Wiser can port-forward as a LAN device. A simple way to think about this is that Wiser needs to take traffic coming from the modem intended for the CTC and then forward it to the CTC, then take the reply from the CTC and forward it to its WAN port.