PICED 4.12.1.0 exception error

Hi all. Got a problem with PICED... have just installed 4.12.1.0 on my main PC. This already has Toolkit 1.13.3 and CGATE v2.10.2 (build 3106) both of which are running fine. This PC has not had any version of PICED installed previously, so this was a fresh install, not an upgrade...

The install of PICED went fine. I can launch it & it starts up OK. It shows the "What's new for PICED Version 4.12.1.0" window, and automatically launches the "Project Details Wizard" on top of that. I completed the wizard following the "Create a new blank project" config path. I have entered all the project details (I believe) correctly. - PS this is in order to create a new WISER project, as I've just resurrected my WISER which has been in storage for the last year, and I'm now trying to install it on an entirely new CBUS installation.

Following the project wizard, it launches the Widget Manager. I have spent an hour or so in there setting up all the various locations, function groups & widgets etc.
Then the problem starts...
I didn't want to transfer the project straight away, so (after having made sure to hit "save") I just went to close the widget manager gracefully... this then instantly enters an unbreakable cycle of program exceptions (see screenshot attached). the "Send and Close" button does not work AFAICT - in fact no matter what I do on the error dialog, it immediately reappears, and the *only* way to stop this cycle is to use task manager to kill the PICED process...

I have rebooted the PC - no improvement...

The error message indicates a problem writing to the registry? - note I am running as full administrator of this PC.
The machine is running Windows 7 Ultimate Edition, 64 bit.

I really do not want to have to completely rebuild my main PC from scratch just to get this damn CBUS software to work... - I had to do that a while back for the Toolkit software, so bending over backwards to accommodate shoddy Clipsal CBUS software is becoming somewhat of a bind!

 

Update:

Oh joy, this gets even better... - this is *EXACTLY* the same as what happened with the Toolkit software a while back.... it now refuses to uninstall via Windows standard uninstall process.... I recall I had to install a 3rd party brute force uninstaller tool to get rid of Toolkit last time...

The uninstall complains: "Unable to create a temporary file. Setup aborted. Error 5: Access is denied."

This is bullsh**t - I am *god* of my machine, there is no part of it to which I do not have full admin rights...

 

Update 2

I really am getting sick to the back teeth with CBUS software... *EVERY TIME* I have to do this I have some problem that sucks up *days* of my time, which I just do not have to spare...

So, using Revo uninstaller, I forced PICED to be removed from my machine, including all REG entries, and on-disk files. I thought I'd give a go at trying an older version, so I've installed 4.10.1.0 - I very carefully noted the compatibility requirement for CGATE version that the installer highlighted... I *DO* meet those stated requirements!! - versions of both are mentioned in the top post...

Predictably however, this does not work either... PICED appears to be claiming that my version of CGATE is not compatible... (see screenie below)

 

Oh for crying out ***ing loud...



On top of everything else, I just happened to glance at my Comfort keypad and I noticed that the time is one hour behind.... sound familiar???

This is a brand new Comfort alarm system with the very new mark-2 CBUS UCM and the latest mark 3 Ethernet UCM (which does NTP time sync)

This has been installed & running for a couple of months now and has never missed a beat... 100% correct performance, 100% of the time...

And look.... as soon as I connect the Wiser unit to the same network, my Comfort systems' time is suddenly an hour out... This was going on FOUR YEARS AGO!!!
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5938
and it STILL HASN'T BEEN FIXED!!!
Don't tell me this is a Comfort problem as was asserted last time...
this poxy ***ing Wiser is ****e! it has always been ****e, and even after all this time, it's still ****e...
If I hadn't paid such an obscene amount of money for what is basically a glorified broadband router, I would detach it from the CNI and throw the damn thing in a skip.
I could not be more fed up & disillusioned with Clipsal CBUS than I am now...

 

Hi pgordon
I am running slightly older versions than you.
Toolkit 1.13.0 and Piced 4.12.0.0 on Windows 7 Pro SP1 64 bit.
Windows Firewall and Microsoft Security Essentials virus protection.
Not many troubles to speak of.
Certainly not the uninstall troubles you are having.

I did strike some trouble with Toolkit scanning a new network with my RS232 PCI but that is sort of understandable since I connect to the PCI with a 3rd party serial to Ethernet device server.
Existing networks scan no problem.
The new network scanned fine with a USB connection to PAC.
Quite a credit to Clipsal really for supplying a working USB driver for the OS.

I do install and uninstall various versions of CBus software just to play around with it and have never had any trouble uninstalling though that's probably no consolation to you.

What are you using to interface to the CBus network?
I've not used Wiser at all but it does offer a unique set of features regardless if the underlying hardware is similar to a router.
I don't want to reinforce your already dim view but using it as a PC interface sounds about the most difficult way to get a CBus connection.

Until I hear otherwise I think your problems may well be due to some PC hardware or software issues.

CBus and especially Wiser is the antithesis of "it just works".
It does not just work but it does offer features which are not universally available.

 

Thanks Daryl. I am using the inline CNI that is "part" of the Wiser package to access the CBUS network from my PC. This part works fine, I have toolkit on this PC and it connects, opens & scans the network just fine... - most of the time... (I have noticed recently, that at random occurrences, toolkit fails to open the network & I have to power-cycle the CNI to fix it... kinda like the CNI is locking up randomly... but it's not very frequent - perhaps once or twice a month - so I can live with that without complaining too much)

I certainly agree with the jist of many of your comments... the Wiser unit does offer functionality not obtainable by any other means... (when it works!) - which is why I bought one... and never a truer word was spoken than CBUS doesn't 'just work' However, that said, I (and I get the impression from the Wiser forum that I'm not alone), have had an unreasonable amount of angst with the Wiser.. I truly feel it was released as an unfinished product...

I love most of the CBUS hardware... I have implemented it in every house I have bought going back 10 years or more... but I really can't say the same about the software... over the years, like you, I have had need to install/uninstall/reinstall CBUS softwares - as well as no end of other software packages... and by a country mile the CBUS software is universally what causes the most aggravation... I am struggling to think if I can recall a single other piece of software - ever - that just refuses to uninstall via Windows control panel... but it has occurred several times with both Toolkit and PICED...
Over the years I have on more than one occasion had to completely wipe & rebuild Windows on my PC *just* to get one or other of those packages to work as it should (I tend to rebuild every couple of years anyway to clear out all the crud, but often a problem with CBUS software prompts that activity).

This problem I'm having right now isn't anything to do with how I am interfacing to the CBUS network... It's just poor software pure & simple... I'd be confident to wager that if I spent the next 6-8 hours reformatting & rebuilding Windows on this machine, then install the CBUS software *FIRST* - It will likely as not function perfectly... but I shouldn't have to do that!! not with quality software! - there's no other software I have attempted to use anytime in the last couple of years that has forced me to rebuild my PC just to be able to use it! Oh and at this point it's also worth adding that no other hardware or software has ever forced me to re-address my entire LAN because the *stupid* IP Config tool refuses to allow me to change the fixed IP address in the unit... yet not 2 months ago that is exactly what I had to do here because the CBUS IP config tool absolutely would not change the IP in the aforementioned CNI... so once again, thanks to Clipsals absolutely dire software, I wasted something like 4-5 hours fighting with it, before admitting defeat and spending another hour or two reconfiguring every IP device on my network...


And just don't get me started on the Wiser time sync thing.... that is just outrageously poor, buggy behaviour, for which there really is no excuse. That it is still happening after all this time since I (and many others) first reported it is inexcusable.

 

Hi pgordon
When I said "it doesn't just work" I mean that it takes some knowledge and experience to set up products like Wiser.
Many people on the forum do run into problems using Wiser as a PC interface and it seems to me not just because of the hardware.
That's just my opinion since as I said I have never used Wiser.

Maybe I wasn't clear but I don't have much troubles with CBus software.
When I do install and uninstall Toolkit or Piced it is usually to look at some issues other people are having here on the forum.
For example after listening to your issues I plan to upgrade them just to see if I find a problem.

I have never ever resorted to using a 3rd party software removal program and if I had to I would consider the OS trashed.
If my OS was giving troubles and thankfully Windows 7 hasn't for a long time now, I've never thought it was due to CBus software.

The fact that you think a fresh Windows install might solve your problems tells me you are probably due for it.

 

Thanks Ashleigh, an interesting read, and some good comments.
Perhaps I am being pretty harsh at this point... but honestly, I can't help it any more... my patience has been largely eroded over the last few years... perhaps I've been 'spoiled' for the last decade or two by being exposed to, using, and becoming used to, hardware and software that does 'just work'.... as you indicated, my desktop PC (and actually, all my computing devices, not just Microsoft based ones) have always, unfailingly handled the local time accuracy in such a way that I have never had to give it the slightest thought, so it therefore jars very noticeably and obviously when something doesn't. I take your comparison to MS... I realise Schneider isn't Microsoft, I realise they don't have the global headcount, and massive resources available that MS does... however... look at it from a purely customer-centric POV... I don't pay *anything like* as much for Microsoft's products as I do for Schneider's... in the UK I think a copy of Windows is maybe ?70, Office about ?100-?200 depending on edition... compare that with what I pay for CBUS hardware...
Wiser - ?600, Dimmer modules - ?500, relay modules around ?400, switches around ?150 each... I have over the years invested *thousands* of pounds in CBUS kit - many times more than I've ever given to MS... - is anyone seriously going to suggest that it is unreasonable, unfair or harsh of me to *expect* that it performs in a manner commensurate with its cost? Of course I know there is an argument to made for economies of scale... I get that...

I'm also not immune to the lot of the software developer... I've worked in IT all my adult life, I've 'done' software development - not I hasten to add commercially - I am not a programmer by profession, but nevertheless I have written some fairly beefy applications (my first major effort was about 30 years ago when I wrote a database system which ran to 10,000 lines of code and included modules written in COBOL and FORTRAN, whilst the bulk was in CPL, this was in a mainframe environment at a time when the development environment didn't include nice tools like automatic syntax checking, auto-indentation and so on, so as part of that project, I had to write a separate application which would parse my code files, check syntax, indent the code to line up START & END code blocks correctly, write out the reformatted code files, and produce a report of any errors found). Long story short... I know a thing or two about exception handling... and I've seen some behaviour from PICED this last couple of days that makes me want to weep...
(I can give a variety of examples with screenies if needed, but I've left them out for the sake of brevity).

I understand, and largely agree with the facts of DST... It hasn't actually changed in the UK since WW1 I believe, although there are repeated rumblings of abolishing it in the UK (the Scots always seem to object to that). I agree that it isn't 'easy' for Schneider to code to accommodate every possibility (I have never suggested they should) - I absolutely accept the assertion that the best they should reasonably be expected to do is provide a mechanism in the software for the end-user to (to quote you) "enter the information and if it changes, update it." - but that is *EXACTLY* what does NOT work in the Wiser!! - numerous posts on these boards describe the behaviour where users are trying to do just that... to TELL Wiser the details of what timezone it is in, whether or not it should apply DST, what dates it should start & stop on, and what offset to apply... - and Wiser ignores all of it... I am not alone in having had to lie to Wiser about what timezone it's in just to get it to keep the right time, precisely because the DST mechanism is somehow broken.

To return to the installer issue for a moment, I absolutely get that a Windows environment is such a mish-mash of code which can come from just about anywhere, have been written by just about anyone, that it could sometimes be considered a miracle that it all works together at all! As I said, I've worked in IT for a tad over 30 years, and that has included 1st, 2nd, and 3rd line support, so I have certainly had to deal with more than my fair share of problems caused by recalcitrant software, I do know how frustrating that can be! The fact is though, that things are vastly better now than they used to be... I know that if I rebuild my PC from scratch, then install the CBUS software before any other, in all likelihood it will work perfectly, so I know that it CAN work, and that it DOES work - given a perfect environment... but it's only been 9-10 months or so since I last rebuilt, at which point I only needed to install Toolkit, not PICED. In that intervening period my machine has been stable & well behaved... I don't use it for testing software willy-nilly, so I don't as rule install "stuff" on it fecklessly. The fact of the matter remains that right now, I can install any software package on it, then uninstall it via the accepted method (i.e. control panel, programs & software) and the uninstall will work fine (Revo uninstaller is a good case in point, I had to install it only to clean up PICED, then I uninstalled it right after). The fact of the matter remains that the last time I had uninstaller problems it was with another piece of CBUS software (Toolkit that time), and the fact of the matter remains, that hand on heart I can say that I have not had ANY other software application behave in this way since I was running Windows for Workgroups 3.11 sometime back in the early 90's - It's easy to say that it's my PC that is at fault, and that perhaps it's due for a rebuild anyway, but if I have absolutely no other problems of any kind, with any other software, is it actually my PC or the errant software application that should shoulder the blame for the errors?

I really don't want to turn this thread into a rant against Schneider/Clipsal or any individual who's work I may be criticising here, I genuinely just want to get to point where everything works and we all are happy... there is nothing wrong with *constructive* criticism, which I hope is (mostly) what I have offered - Of course I can't but help colouring that either by comment or 'tone' with the frustration which I (understandably) feel right now...

So, to get back to that, short of rebuilding my PC once again - which will take the best part of a couple of days to get back to 'just how I like it' - has anyone any idea what might be the underlying problem here? - the exception that PICED throws hints at a problem (permissions?) writing to the registry.. "Failed to create key Forms/WidgetManager" - this is unlikely, since as I said, I am full admin on this PC... is the error message to be believed? what is PICED trying to write to the registry at the point at which it exits Widget Manager? - Can I get a .REG file that I can import to create the required keys myself to see if I can move beyond this problem - unfortunately the error message doesn't give me the full path, so I can't know exactly where the key(s) need to be created...

I really don't think that having to rebuild my PC from scratch every time I have a problem with CBUS software (and lets not forget it is now, and only ever has been, with CBUS software), is a reasonable course of action, given the time and effort that activity requires, I'd *really* rather avoid that, and actually get to the bottom of the problem, and fix that specific issue rather than fudge a solution every time by re-engineering the entire world to satisfy the foibles of one fussy citizen instead of bending the will of that citizen to fit in with the rest of the world as it actually is...

Thanks all.

Paul G.

 

Hi Daryl.
I tend to rebuild my PC about every 24 months or so just to maintain a good clean state... I don't relish the process since it does tend to take *days* to get everything back as I like it to be, during which time my productivity is ruined, so I don't especially want to resort to doing this again quite so soon (only about 9-10 months since last rebuild IIRC).
I don't accept the suggestion that the OS is in any way trashed, or that it is overdue for a rebuild. As I mentioned in another post, this build is stable, fast & reliable with every other piece of software that I have on it, or can throw at it. The *only* application problem I have now is with PICED, the *only* other application problem I've had within the last 12 months was with Toolkit (same error then too, - wouldn't install correctly, then wouldn't uninstall either), in fact I can honestly say that the *only* application install/uninstall problems I've had at any point as far back as I can remember (i.e. the last 2-3 years) have been with one or other piece of CBUS software... the IP config tool also wasted many hours of my life recently when it utterly failed in its sole purpose of configuring the IP settings in a CBUS unit (I had to re-address my entire LAN to fit with the IP previously set in the CNI, since it refused to let me change it).

Given the circumstances, I just cannot swallow the suggestions along the lines of "it's not the CBUS software, it's your PC" - the *evidence* just does not support that hypothesis...

Cheers.

Paul G.

 

Hi Paul
Since I am running the same OS, some time tomorrow I will install the latest Toolkit and Piced and pass on my results.

As I mentioned I've never had any uninstall problems with CBus software which leads me to think it could be an OS issue.

Do you have any other interface to connect to the CBus network?
I doubt that is related to your software problems but I think it is a whole lot easier to connect to the network by other means.

Aside from your uninstall problems it seems to me that Piced crashed while trying to upload the Wiser project.
I wouldn't be surprised if some configuration or hardware problems with the Wiser could cause some software crashes.

As I said I do not have any experience with Wiser whatsoever but I will have a play around with the software to see if I can replicate any problems on Windows 7 64 bit.

 

Thanks Daryl, any insights are certainly going to be useful. I think it's fair to say that since I know both applications CAN work quite perfectly - I have in the past had both installed & working fine - that whilst I don't think it's a windows "issue" per se, it clearly is caused by some interaction *with* the underlying OS that is not being handled well by PICED which causes it to throw the exception... I can't fathom why this application, and this one alone, is complaining about writing to the registry... It would be helpful if I knew the full path of the key(s) it is trying to create - I'm assuming that since this is the very first time Widget manager has been run that it tries to create some keys to store its properties in.. I would assume this is a one-time process, and that once those keys exist then PICED would not try to create them, but would instead proceed to trying to write the values into them... whether this function works or not might provide some helpful information...

I think perhaps I'll spin up a clean Win7 VM and test some more in a virgin environment... that alone is going to take a little bit of time which I can't really afford to give just now... daughters 12th birthday party tomorrow, so I already have more to do than I have time to do it in...

Unfortunately, I don't have any other CBUS interface available to me... the Wiser is marketed as being all one needs by virtue of its "built-in" CNI - which apart from the form factor, I'm given to believe is exactly the same hardware under the hood as the standard DIN rail CNI... so that shouldn't - in theory - cause any issues, and indeed, in my experience it does function perfectly well with Toolkit (apart from the odd random lockup I mentioned earlier, but I guess any device could experience that). And I *have* in the past had it working with PICED on a previous PC...

I'm fairly convinced - for a number of reasons - that what I'm seeing cries out as an issue with PICED, - or with the way it is interacting with Windows. apart from the exception being thrown, other things do not work properly... for example, on the error dialog box that appears when the exception occurs, there is a "Send and Close" button... as far as I can tell, this doesn't send.. - least there's no way I can see it doing anything... it does close the dialog, but the same exception is immediately thrown and it re-appears straight away, and continues to do so indefinitely until I use task manager to kill the PICED process. *** update *** actually, it appears that "indefinitely" is incorrect... having persevered as a test, I believe it repeated 16 times before it stopped, went away, and stayed away, then leaving the "What's new for PICED version 4.12.1.0" window active... If I de-select the tickbox "show on startup" and hit OK to close, that then immediately throws an exception: "Failed to create key Whatsnew" I can cancel that error dialog and it stays closed but reappears every time I try to close the "Whats new..." window...
I can close the "Whats New..." window with the Window's "X" button rather than "OK" - obviously then discarding my settings, and it stays away leaving the main PICED window in focus, with my project file open...
It is however, totally unusable even now.. for example, if I try to run the transfer utility, it shows the "select Network adapter dialog" but as soon as I select any NIC on the list, it throws the error "Socket error # 10013 Access denied" - again hinting at permissions issues, which is indeed extremely odd...

TIA

Paul G.

 

Hi Paul
Are you saying that opening Piced and trying to uncheck startup tips does not work?
Definitely no problem with that on my 64 bit PC.

I uninstalled all Clipsal software and reinstalled latest versions a few times.
Windows 7 64 bit.
No problems with the uninstaller here.

 

For what it's worth I have had a problem in the past with a different (nothing to do with C-Bus) application that was throwing permission errors a bit like what you are seeing.

It turns out the application was installed in a non standard location, and my anti virus/general protection software was blocking access to certain registry areas and folders. I had a real battle to figure out the problem, and get it to work, but in the end I had to disable the virus software.

I have no idea if this is relevant to your problem, but it might be something to consider.

Cheers

Rohan

 

Interesting... and definitely worth a few minutes of my time to investigate... as you say, CBUS software defaults to C:\Clipsal as its install point, rather than the (more correct I would say) C:\Program Files (x86) folder....

Perhaps Clipsal's non-adherence to a decades old Windows standard is in some way contributing to the errors....

I will uninstall (probably have to be done by brute force 3rd party cleanup tool) then reinstall with the install location changed to be more "correct"

Will report back if this makes any difference...

Cheers.

Paul G.

 

By Jove, I think that's done it!!

Must be that this time I was rushing, and not anticipating any problems, so I obviously accepted the defaults that the installer suggested... In truth, I have always been in the habit of overriding any application that didn't want to install itself in the standard program files folder, as I like to keep my hard drive tidy & well organised... must be the case therefore that on previous occasions when installing CBUS software I had indeed remembered and adhered to my usual habit of forcing the install location to the correct folder...

Why oh Why do Clipsal insist in doing this non-standard install?? - the program files folder has been around for something like 2 decades now, and has always been the "correct" location for applications to install themselves into... there's no good reason not to adhere to that standard...

In light of the fact that the default settings supplied by the installer *do not work* - at least on Win7 ultimate 64-bit - and I bet the same is true of other versions too - can Clipsal *please* change the settings and install by default to the correct location?

And in anticipation of someone else adding a comment along the lines of "My install is in C:\Clipsal and mine works perfectly, therefore it must be something peculiar to your PC" - well that *may* be proven so... but it does not change the fact that according to Windows standards, applications should be installed into the designated program files folder, and it would seem that only then will apps be *guaranteed* to function correctly and not be kyboshed by some windows (or perhaps even 3rd-party) security framework...

For the record, my security framework is Microsoft Security Essentials - I do not run any 3rd party AV or firewall tools...

Slightly happier bunny now...

Paul G.

 

Thanks for the tip Rohan.
Certainly beats reinstalling the OS.

What I wonder is why it doesn't cause any trouble on my Windows7 64 bit install and why Clipsal chose to create a separate directory in C drive.
I imagine there is some reason.

For the record I am using MS security essentials and Windows firewall too.

 

Historically C-Bus software has always been installed in c:\clipsal.

Way back in the V1 days it was Windows 3.1 and that was how it was done. I don't know the reason for not changing.

I have always let the installation install in C:\Clipsal and this has (as far as I can remember) always worked over the years. it is also working on my current W8.1 64Bit machine.

Cheers

Rohan

 

Hi Ashleigh
Thanks for that explanation.
It may be something to consider for future CBus software updates.
I think it's something which could be addressed in the release notes.
As far as separate users goes, I think Windows can already handle that.

What I still wonder is why Paul had troubles and not everyone else.