New house but old C-Bus

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by odonnells, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Hi,

    I am looking for some help.
    I have recently bought a new house which has an installed C-Bus system.
    The problem is that no documentation of the system was left.

    There is an extensive C-bus system with a Minder system which has a serial port on it.

    The system is probably as old as the house (1999 or so built). It was certainly incorporated in the original build and I don't think it has been added to since then so all components are of about that time.

    Not knowing if this was a valid thing to do, I downloaded the latest C-bus toolkit and installed it on my work PC which has a serial port on it and after sorting out the proper pinout and gender cable, fired it up against the system the other day.

    It identified the project name with the previous owners name so I have to assume that it made some contact with the system but then failed with an error saying something along the lines of it couldn't interpret a response of ~~~~ ^^^.

    I know that is a little vague on the detail but what I am seeking here is what is the right tool (and version of) to be using in the first place and can I get access to both the Minder and C-Bus systems through that serial port? The fact that it got some access to the C-Bus through the Minder serial card suggest that it is possible but perhaps the software I tried is too "new".

    The Minder has a phone message that answers every call after 3 rings and plays a "where not home" message and hangs up. This among other things I would like to fix, and it'd be damn nice just to have control of the C-Bus system. After all, isn't that the point of it?

    Any help would be much appreciated.
     
    odonnells, Sep 30, 2010
    #1
  2. odonnells

    Charlie Crackle

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    you need to use the minder software (PM me if you can not find it)

    you need to use the old cbus software for connection via minder

    http://203.41.170.20/downloads/files/C-Bus_Installation_Software_V2.7.10.zip

    You might need to splash out on a PC interface or USB interface. to use the new tool kit.

    if you dont have the source files then the downloaded config may be a bit hard to understand.

    Charles
     
    Charlie Crackle, Sep 30, 2010
    #2
  3. odonnells

    Ashley W

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    Just to expand on what Charlie has said, Minder and C-bus are two separate things, however as you have found the serial port on Minder can be used as an interface to C-bus. This cannot be done using tool kit though, instead you need to use the older C bus installation program that Charlie linked to. To use tool kit you really need a proper C-bus PC interface.

    Now having said that I did find that some of the early version of tool kit did work ok through Minder, so if you really want you can load some of the early ones and give it a go.

    To program minder (which is where you will need to go to stop the thing answering the phone like it does) you need the minder installation software. You can then do an upload of the database to see what's in there then modify it before saving back. The killer though is you will need to know a 4 digit pin to upload the database. Not sure if there is a backdoor way around it, but guess you can try some simple ones like 0000 to start with.
     
    Ashley W, Sep 30, 2010
    #3
  4. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Hello again.

    It has been a long time but I think I am ready to tackle the C-Bus again.

    So yes this is 2 years later. (time flies)

    I will start with a simple question.

    What is this item, what do the 4 LED/buttons on the front do?
    Photo attached (should be).

    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

    odonnells, Nov 24, 2012
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  5. odonnells

    bmerrick

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    Hi Odonnells,

    What you have there is a c-Bus2 4 channel dimmer. It is just a newer version of the dimmers that you probably have elsewhere on your c-Bus network, the flat 'brickettes' the size of a paperback with black electrical covers. The buttons on the front on this newer dimmer are local toggles for the 4 dimmer channels, pushing the buttons will turn on the channel that you push. Hold any button in for about 3-4 seconds and the module will go back to c-Bus control from local toggle mode.

    If all your rooms are the same age without any recent renovation, it is possible to think this might be a replacement for a previously expired c-Bus v1 dimmer.

    Also, if your network is as old as you stated previously, this dimmer is most likely the newest piece of kit you have.

    Not sure if you still have the Minder running things, but if you do, it really is the right time to replace it with a newer logic device as parts are becoming increasingly impossible to get. I had a new client call from Queensland to take my last 2 spare Minder boards a few months back. He said he had called around several Clipsal specialists and had found no boards/units (They do come up from time to time on eBay though). He also told me his front door had to be left open for 2 days as his access control and everything else was down.

    What are you thinking of doing?

    Kind Regards,

    Brad
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
    bmerrick, Nov 24, 2012
    #5
  6. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Wow, Thanks Brad for a very kind answer. I had worked out that it was the DIMDN4 in my list of units shortly after my post and was felling a little stupid for asking such a dumb question. Still it is a speciality of mine...

    Anyway, on to more meaty matters.

    The below snapshot will make it clear what is in the system. There are a few failed keypads and I have 2 new ones to install. Trouble is, the old software says it won't talk to a KEYC4 so I have had to use toolkit which looks much better but it won't complete a full network scan.

    It stops at about unit 21 or 23 (or 34 the first time) and gives error 3051.

    If I ping the units, it knows there are more there including one new pad I have already connect (in place of failed dining room pad). Also, unit 9 has sometimes failed to respond to the ping sweep.

    In the absence of original programming, I have gone through and manually created group numbers 0 - 170 which covers all the known items and I can control all those loads with the toolkit with the on-off selections so things seem to be working to a fair degree.

    I am unable to get the units all in the database though and I don't think it would be a good idea to write modifications to the system with partial visibility so I am after help with getting the units on board first.

    Thanks.
     

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    odonnells, Nov 25, 2012
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  7. odonnells

    bmerrick

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    Hi Odonnells,

    How are you attaching to the c-Bus network and using what Toolkit level?

    Do you have a PC interface or are you trying to use the Minder interface? The Minder interface periodically sends out 'Hayes' modem reset strings every so often and this might be what is killing your connection halfway through if you are using the Minder interface with an early Toolkit.

    It may be best to try to get the original project off the Minder using the Minder software so you have the logic you can print out. If you don't have the code and it isn't the usual suspects like 0000, 1234, 1111,9999 etc often the installers may have written it inside the manual (front page, back page etc). or put / penned the code inside the unit cabinet so you could consider taking the cover off using the two hex key screws to look inside. Don't touch the board as it have live power supply components and preferably it should be off.

    A new PCI and the new Toolkit will successfully reprogram all the units on your c-Bus to talk to each other, but will not access the Minder to recover any logic that it is currently running (and doing that will probably stop the logic running properly).

    Kind Regards,

    Brad
     
    bmerrick, Nov 25, 2012
    #7
  8. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Hi Brad,

    So I am not concerning myself with controlling the Minder system just yet. I am just using the serial interface on it to get into the C-Bus system. Using toolkit 1.11.1.

    Some success actually. Another panel seems to have failed. Panel (unit 19) was all lights on this morning (panel lights that is, not controlled lights) and now when I scan the network, it proceeds successfully and reports 55 units found. Unit 9 and unit 19 being the exceptions.

    Unit 9 I mentioned before was showing up intermittently and that panel has been blank for months and unresponsive (well I think it is that panel though it is a KEY4 and the DB says unit 9 is a KEY2), and now the 4 key panel in the ensuite is all lit but unresponsive also.

    I have managed to program the dining unit with a new setting so that is all good now.

    This panel 19 has DB knowledge of the previous panel programming and I want to copy that to a new panel I have added in its place. The new unit is 255.

    If I select the faulty Key4 panel in DB and click Reinstall it says the unit at address 255 is not compatible.

    Am I going to have to manually migrate (recreate) the programming or is there some other black art?

    p.s. The new panel is a KEYC4 btw.

    Thanks
    B.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2012
    odonnells, Nov 26, 2012
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  9. odonnells

    bmerrick

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    Hi Odonnells,

    Glad to hear you are getting somewhere.

    The 'Black Art' you are looking for is the 'Convert Units' command on the top 'Database' window. It allows you to change your database entry for the old switchplate from a KEY4 to a KEYC4, and to then use the reinstall command to replace the faulty unit with the new 255 addressed unit. Hit the help button and it gives you all the good oil to use it successfully.

    Enjoy,

    Brad
     
    bmerrick, Nov 26, 2012
    #9
  10. odonnells

    Mr Mark

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    Hello odonnells.
    Before you start replacing switches, it would pay to check your power supplies.
    Where are you located?

    Mark
     
    Mr Mark, Nov 26, 2012
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  11. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Hi Again,

    So replaced the panel in the Ensuite and it is all good now. I reprogrammed it after all.

    So what is the issue with the power supplies? I have 4 in the system. 5100PS if memory serves.

    I manually entered them into the database in Toolkit. I presume that is all you can do with them.

    So a question for today. If I am dimming 50W downlights, am I saving any significant electricity by doing so? As in are the dimmers in the C-Bus efficient about how they do the dimming?

    My next target will be to get into the Minder2 and start sorting it out. Can anyone direct me to the correct software for that?

    Thanks

    B.
     
    odonnells, Nov 29, 2012
    #11
  12. odonnells

    NickD Moderator

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    I don't have any figures to quote, but generally they are fairly efficient. There are some losses in switching but they are less than the power that would be consumed by the lamp if it were at full brightness...

    You can dim to about 85% and save a bit of power without any real noticeable change in brightness. The other advantage of this is the lamp life is significantly increased.

    Assuming you are talking about low voltage downlights, then if you don't want to go all the way and switch them to LED (a proper LED like a Pierlite Starburst), the simplest/most effective saving would be to just replace the 50W lamps with something like a 35W Osram IRC. You'll get pretty much the same light output for 70% of the power input.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Nov 29, 2012
    #12
  13. odonnells

    Ashley

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    The efficiency of the C-Bus dimmers is not really the issue. When you dim an incandescent light (such as a low voltage halogen), the light runs at a lower temperature so the wavelength of all the light drops (that's why they go orange). The problem is a lot of light ends up in the infra-red range which draws power but isn't very useful. So a 50W halogen dimmed to 50% apparent light ouput would be drawing a significantly more that a 25W halogen.
     
    Ashley, Nov 30, 2012
    #13
  14. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Thanks NickD and Ashley, that is about what I expected and also good tips on the bulb running dim vs lower wattage bulbs. I would of course like to go LED at some point.

    Transformers I have are Atco TS50-2.

    Is there any dimmable LED MR16 bulbs that will just work with that transformer?

    Should I rewire the low voltage to put more LED bulbs per transformer to up the current?

    Anyone got any help on the Minder software front?

    Bruce
     
    odonnells, Nov 30, 2012
    #14
  15. odonnells

    Newman

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    Those transformers are most likely Actec TM50-2's, which means they are an iron-core type. You have a much better chance of getting MR16 LED retrofit lamps to work with these transformers than electronic transformers, so this is good.

    Having said all that there is still not available a genuine retrofit MR16 LED lamp that is form/fit/function equivalent to a 50W halogen. If you want equivalent (or better) performance then you need a replacement lamp/transformer and the lamp will be larger than a traditional MR16. For most installations the larger lamp body is not that much of an issue.

    It's worth remembering that if you decide to use LED retrofit bulbs you have the inefficiencies of the iron core transformer to deal with. Even running a 7W LED retrofit lamp you'll still be throwing away several watts in the transformer.

    Putting more lamps per transformer is not necessarily the answer as it depends upon the specifics of the transformers and LED retrofit lamps being used.
     
    Newman, Dec 1, 2012
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  16. odonnells

    odonnells

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    Thanks Newman,

    The weight would certainly suggest iron core tranny but I stick by my original name. See photo. Company name is in the flash flare but... TM50-2 sure enough.

    Anyway, this is not my biggest problem right now. The biggest problem (apart from the lack of anyone with info on Minder control software) is that when I fire up toolkit and have to rescan the units, it often fails still with either error 3051 or error 22945. If I scan new units then it finds a fair few of them and then stops with the 22945 error and if I scan network, it usually stops with the 3051 error.

    Sometimes, it works though and sometimes it works minus a couple of units. Why so inconsistent? Is it power supplies like Mr Mark mentioned. How would I get these checked? It is hard to get electricians to do house calls for minor jobs in Sydney. Even harder to get someone who will work on C-Bus it seems (and damned impossible for someone to look at minder:mad:).

    I have 4x 5100PS, 2 in downstairs and 2 in upstairs.

    Thanks Bruce
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2012
    odonnells, Dec 3, 2012
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  17. odonnells

    bmerrick

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    Hi Bruce,

    I emailed you early last week offering just this (ie to come out and help). Did you not receive my mail? When I didn't hear back I assumed you wanted to 'go it alone' as many people on the forum do. You do have forum PMs off but email is on. Suggest you turn PMs on in your profile.

    As for Minder, I used to work on them, but now only to replicate their programming into a newer logic unit and remove them from the network. This is because of their recent higher failure rate (hey, they are getting very old!!!) and a lack of parts and end of life (since several years ago) unsupported software.

    Coming into the Christmas period, when many contractors take their holidays, having your house's logic controlled by something that's getting this old and is so difficult to find support and parts for is IMHO a mistake but of course, your choice.

    In my opinion the Minder were never really something clients could easily get their heads around self supporting when changing logic or scenes etc compared with the newer PICED run controllers/touch screens with logic/Wiser.

    I am happy to help but in the context of making your c-Bus network more reliable and more easily supported by others and yourself by removing the Minder.

    Kind Regards,

    Brad
     
    bmerrick, Dec 3, 2012
    #17
  18. odonnells

    Mr Mark

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    Hello Bruce.

    I've been away with no connectivity for a few weeks but I use an oscilloscope to check wave forms to determine if a power supply (or other device) is faulty. I'll have a dig and see if I can find a document outlining what to look for. Another way to check the old style power supplies is to check the voltage when unloaded, a faulty unit will supply a higher voltage and I think anything above 33 / 34 VDC is bad. One of the CIS guys would have to confirm this as I haven't checked this way for a long time.

    Mark
     
    Mr Mark, Dec 3, 2012
    #18
  19. odonnells

    NickD Moderator

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    Regarding the scanning problems...

    I don't know much about Minder (before my time), but I was under the impression that Toolkit had not supported scanning through a Minder interface for quite some time now.

    If this is the case then it's quite possible that this may be the source of your scanning problems. Hopefully someone else can confirm this.

    If you intend to replace your Minder, then your options are
    - A C-Touch Mk2 (with logic) or C-Touch Spectrum
    - a PAC
    - a Wiser
    - a Colour C-Touch

    All but the last of these will also give you a new interface to scan your network through, so if this is the path you intend to take, perhaps bringing that purchase forward will solve the immediate problem of scanning. If it does, then you haven't wasted the money on new power supplies you didn't need and if it doesn't then you still haven't wasted the money on the new logic unit.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Dec 3, 2012
    #19
  20. odonnells

    Conformist

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    Nick is right... Toolkit won't work with Minder

    BTW, I wouldn't remove Minder. I still have one and it's been in for over 12 years... no problems.

    I would suggest leaving it in place, buy a PACA (or B&W MKII touchscreen with logic), use that for any new logic as well as a connection with Toolkit as your PC interface.

    Cheers
     
    Conformist, Dec 4, 2012
    #20
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