New cbus energy metering system

Discussion in 'Energy Management' started by daky, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. daky

    daky

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    Hi

    Does any know anything about a new Em20 Cbus Energy metering system from synctek ( www.synctek.com.au) ?

    The system offers 3 phase energy metering as well as gas & water metering
    Has anyone used this system - please confirm any feedback!
    How accurate is this unit and what is the software facility like?

    We have been looking for a cbus energy metering system for some time now and feedback will be most appreciated

    thanks
    daky
     
    daky, Oct 30, 2009
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  2. daky

    Automan

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    Cbus Energy Monitor

    Hi Daky

    One of the leckys at work saw your post and told me about a Cbus meter,
    I was not aware of any Cbus Energy Meters on the market and
    I remember speaking to the Clipsal rep for something like this.

    I have been asked many times for energy metering by property developer's
    looking to obtain 6 Star energy rating and if the Synctek Em20 Energy Meter
    can monitor power gas and water then I will be making enquires.

    Do you know if it's available through the wholesaler?
    How does it measure water and gas?

    Cheers
    Automan
     
    Automan, Nov 4, 2009
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  3. daky

    Conformist

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    Please note... This is NOT a C-Bus product! I'm of the understanding that the product is being developed by a 3rd party. The product is not part of the C-Bus enabled program (has not been certified). It can not carry the registerred C-Bus trademark/name without expressed permission from Clipsal (no such permission has been granted). I would strongly suggest the developer of this product remove the C-Bus inference from the product, before they get a nasty letter from the suits!
     
    Conformist, Nov 4, 2009
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  4. daky

    daky

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    Cbus energy metering

    Hi all,

    I have had some feedback from the company that makes the cbus energy meter, they say that the unit should be available for sale in December or January and it is designed to work on the clipsal cbus network. It appears to be a 3rd pary device but as I understand there are quite a lot of 3rd party cbus devices in the cbus market - who cares as long as it works!

    Hope that this energy meter is as good as they claim, we have been waiting for something like this for a long time. I have tried these pulse type energy sensors but there's a lot of work to be done to get them to provide full energy history and charts. Many of my customers have asked for energy meters that can be hooked up to their cbus terminal screens.
     
    daky, Nov 6, 2009
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  5. daky

    Conformist

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    WRONG! It is illegal to use a tradmark on a product without permission! Let's see.... I'll build a product, put an apple sticker on it (as long as it works with an iPOD)... see how long I last, before I'm contacted with a cease and desist order. Passing-off is a serious breach of the trade practices act. The companies who own the trademarks and the law care.

    I'm sure this is a fine product.... but... Please don't be so flippant about the laws that ensure you get genuine, tested, endorsed product.

    You may not, but the majority of C-Bus users care!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2009
    Conformist, Nov 6, 2009
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  6. daky

    znelbok

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    So as long as they pull the "C bus" text off the front of it, they are fine - is that correct?
     
    znelbok, Nov 6, 2009
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  7. daky

    Colin Smith

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    Actually, I care and I care a great deal!.

    If this device fails and takes out other C-bus products that are connected to the network, who is going to foot the bill!

    Who is going to provide support if it starts playing up? - Synctek say "Its not our product that?s at fault" and Clipsal say "Remove it from the network!" Client states "What a crap system C-Bus is".

    I'm not much of a fortune teller but I can foresee men in black suits with legal papers turning up on their doorstep in the very near future if they proceed to state that it is compatable without the required testing. :cool:

    Colin
     
    Colin Smith, Nov 6, 2009
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  8. daky

    znelbok

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    Colin
    I think the argument here is being confused. Conformist was talking about Trademarks, you are talking about the product itself and how well it works.

    The scenario you have mentioned can also happen with a C-Bus certified device. the results can be the same. The argument is valid and very important, we don't want anything that will bring down the C-bus name and ruin its reputation.

    A product does not have to be C-bus certified to work properly on the C-Bus network, but i believe it does have to be certified before Clipsal will give permission to put their logo on it (which this unit does not have, it only has the works in heir own font "C Bus", so I am not sure how that works with trademarks etc.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not defending them, only pointing out the logic that I see here.

    I would hate to see business' that are interested in developing an enabled product not do so because of silly politics that may have happened in the past.

    Mick
     
    znelbok, Nov 6, 2009
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  9. daky

    ashleigh Moderator

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    It would be highly desirable for these folk to submit their product for testing. It's free. And Clipsal will gladly provide suggestions for improvements to other peoples products as well.... for example thats how some other products out there now support date and time.
     
    ashleigh, Nov 7, 2009
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  10. daky

    SYNCTEK

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    Synctek Energy Metering

    Hello everyone,

    I have been asked clear up some possible misconceptions about the Synctek Em20 Energy Meter presently discussed on this forum.

    Please be advised that Clipsal Integrated Systems (CIS) are informed on the development of this product and have been so for about 12 months, CIS have indeed provided and continue to provide Synctek with valuable assistance. Synctek have always and continues to work towards certification as a "C-Bus Enabled" and CIS endorsed product.
    There has never been any intention to knowingly or inappropriately use Clipsal trademarks without permission, our website acknowledges all relevant CIS trademarks. As C-Bus system integrators and designers, we fully support C-Bus automation products and their applications.

    We also note that the Em20 meter product has not been released as yet so many of these issues are somewhat premature, we are constantly working towards product release and most issues will have been resolved by then. For a number of reasons, the Em20 Energy Meter has yet to be submitted for "C-Bus enabled" approval because of some issues concerning existing CIS Metering specs which presently do not adequately support multiple phase metering and multi-meter applications as does Synctek's EM20 Metering unit.

    Other delays pertain to present day CIS software support for Metering applications, which basically do not exist, for this reason Synctek are developing supplementary software to support a range of energy metering applications for use with the Em20 Cbus energy meter. The Em20 energy meter itself is well developed and providing a C-Bus Enabled Meter is only part of the story, hopefully in the not too distant future we will gradually see additional CIS software applications and developer programming support tools for energy metering.

    Some forum posts have commented about Synctek Cbus compatibility and reliability issues - we advise that the Em20 Energy Meter internally incorporates a "Clipsal manufactured C-Bus enabled" interface module that is fully compliant with all C-Bus electrical and software specifications, there are no compatibility problems whatsoever with regards to our Cbus interface. Our Cbus software driver is designed for minimal (and configurable) C-Bus network traffic as a compliant Class 4 device and is therefore highly unlikely to cause any C-Bus network failure - certainly not higher than any other C-Bus enabled device.

    The Em20's muti-phase, multi-meter capability remains an issue for C-Bus certification under existing CIS metering specifications and this needs to be resolved for the product to be released as a CIS application "$D1" metering device. If certification cannot be attained as a "$D1" application, we may possibly look at an early release using the CIS "free use application number $0F" available for Cbus 3rd Party devices. Alternatively we have non-Cbus options using Modbus RTU and built-in Ethernet (due for release in Feb/March 2010) for those forum members or system integrators that may be considering a non-Cbus platform.
     
    SYNCTEK, Nov 9, 2009
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  11. daky

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Hello Colin

    Thanks for the clarification. We'll be in touch privately.

    Regards
    Ashleigh
     
    ashleigh, Nov 9, 2009
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  12. daky

    daky

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    Thanks Synctek


    Clears up a few things!

    We certainly look forward to the quick release of the Cbus Energy Meter. I have a current application that could use 4 Energy meters in a block of 4 units - due for completion in January or February. I am sure if this meter was available I would have quite a lot of applications where they can be applied if that provides any incentive for an early release? :rolleyes:
     
    daky, Nov 9, 2009
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  13. daky

    Conformist

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    Let me clear one thing up... This product is not a C-Bus Energy Meter! The use of the trademark C-Bus (name and/or logo) is not permitted for products sold or manufactured by anyone other than Clipsal or Schneider Electric. This product may be able to carry the C-Bus enabled logo if/when it complies.
     
    Conformist, Nov 9, 2009
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  14. daky

    daky

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    It doesn't appear that there is anything available that can be called a cbus energy meter so it seems to me that if syntek have made a cbus compatiable energy meter then they should recieve encouragement to have such a device available for cbus and offcourse getting it cbus enabled.
     
    daky, Nov 15, 2009
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  15. daky

    petra

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    I checked the synctek website and the energy meter won't be available until early next year. The product looks good and uses seperate pc software to display energy and water consumption screens.
    Is there a current sensor available that measures energy that can be displayed on the color touch screen?
     
    petra, Dec 16, 2009
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  16. daky

    PGOLD

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    You can't measure energy with a current sensor, but you could use a standard CT (eg 100A/5A) connected through a AC/DC amplifier to convert the AC current signal to 0-10V dc and use this to feed one of the analog inputs of a General Input C-Bus module?
    The C-Bus General Input module allows 4 inputs so you should be able to easily measure all three phase currents if 3 CT's are used?
     
    PGOLD, Dec 17, 2009
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  17. daky

    Automan

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    Cbus energy monitor

    I have been in contact with Synctek about their Cbus energy meter
    and they advised that the Cbus option has been undergoing site trials.

    I don't understand why its taking so long, should have been ready by now,
    the release date was to be in the first quarter 2010.

    They did not give me a firm release date but I need energy & water consumption and level monitoring of a grey water storage tanks.


    Automan
     
    Automan, Feb 17, 2010
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  18. daky

    Darpa

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    Give them some time mate, CIS are very strict about testing of all their own and third party C-Bus Enabled products, so that they will work flawlessly for 99% of users. I'm sure Synctek are doing their best to get the product released by the end of March.

    However, there is nothing anyone here can do to speed up that process, as none of us here, neither integrators, end users, nor CIS staff have any control over Synctek and their release schedule.

    Your best bet is to stay in touch with Synctek, as they are the only ones who can keep you updated on their progress. Maybe if you ask them nicely they will let you buy one of the pre-release units if you agree to do some testing for them?
     
    Darpa, Feb 17, 2010
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  19. daky

    NickD Moderator

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    I agree and I can sympathise with the mount of headaches they would be going through with regulatory compliance. It's bad enough for us with just having C-Bus and mains to worry about, but I would imagine there would be all sorts of other compliance issues when they incorporate interfaces to gas and water systems!

    Nick
     
    NickD, Feb 18, 2010
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  20. daky

    grantgibbs

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    New Energy Monitor ?

    It appears that this energy monitor is marketed under a different name at website www.energymonitors.com.au ? - not sure if its the same as the Synctek C-bus energy monitor previously discussed on this forum - anyone have details about this?
     
    grantgibbs, Sep 13, 2010
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