Neo Wireless

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wireless Hardware' started by Bigdave, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Hi everyone

    I recently acquired a neo 2 channel 4 button wireless switch.

    I am having issues joining it to my wireless bridge

    I double press the top two buttons to enter learn
    I push the button on the bridge.
    I go back to the switch and the lights are alternating left and right (to and bottom)
    I press top left and hold and double click top right

    then only the top right blinks
    I do any thing else and it seems to go back into a learn mode type scenario

    I have another Saturn wireless switch which is fine

    any tips?
     
    Bigdave, Aug 4, 2020
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  2. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    I found in the back of the install instructions the factory reset, and this did the trick.
     
    Bigdave, Aug 4, 2020
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  3. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    hmmmm.... now I have lost the other switch.

    Does learn mode dump everything and just add what it finds new?
     
    Bigdave, Aug 4, 2020
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  4. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Well, now I am in a hole.

    When I added the Neo, it lost my Saturn. I re-added the Saturn, but when configuring the NEO, my toolkit freaked out and crashed. It appears to have turned off the local outputs for the Neo. No matter how many times I kill the power (via breaker) and attempt a factory reset, I get this weird, various blinking. I have followed the section 10 of the book on Factory reset, and found some helpful articles in the forums, but now...

    I am stuff with two of my lights on that I cannot turn off. Can anyone help with an emergency factory reset or help?
    I did have another wireless unit, a two channel dimmer, but it made one channel flicker like an 80's disco.

    please help!
     
    Bigdave, Aug 4, 2020
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  5. Bigdave

    Ashley

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    I haven't used these for a while but.....

    This is back to front. You need to put an existing switch into learn mode first as it will determine the house code. By putting the new switch into learn mode first you are either creating a new house code (if it's a new switch), or using it's existing code (if it's a second hand switch). The gateway will set itself to this house code and you will lose all the other devices.

    Is the Neo a leading or trailing edge dimmer? If you use a trailing edge dimmer on inductive loads (like old low voltage transformers) you will destroy it.
     
    Ashley, Aug 5, 2020
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  6. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Hi Ashley.

    I have a 4 gang saturn single channel Relay and a wireless gateway.

    In adding the Neo 5854R4F2AA (2 channel relay) I lost the Saturn, I put the Saturn back on learn mode and found it again. I then had mid-programming a toolkit crash.

    I now have my wireless gateway and Saturn, both operating fine.

    The Neo is not scannable/findable. I attempt a factory reset, which is:

    Kill the breaker power ( I have only been doing 10 seconds, I found a post saying do 30 or more)
    Press and hold top left and right for 10 - this enter alternating blinknig
    then double press top left, pause then do it again.
    Then top left and right hold for 1 second - this should initiate the reset, but it does not. the book says it will flash crazily for 10 secs.
    the alternating blinknig continues.
    I press and hold top left and right for a second, it does nothing.

    So, I have two problems.

    1. I need to get the Neo out of no local input and factory reset. I need to do it on the weekend given I I am at the office all business/daylight hours, and I need to kill power on every attempt, my wife is not a fan of this.

    2. Once done, I would then add it to my wirelss network. I am not entirely certain how to do this, given the experience I have had. I will c
     
    Bigdave, Aug 5, 2020
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  7. Bigdave

    Mr Mark

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    Just a thought, what version is the NEO?
    There was a round of pre production units that went out as field test units - maybe 1.0.0? The ones I had, had to be sent back for an update to communicate with the public release units.
     
    Mr Mark, Aug 5, 2020
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  8. Bigdave

    Ashley

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    There is no need to cycle the power to reset wireless switches (or do anything else for that matter). Not sure where you read that.

    If you enter learn mode from the saturn switch, does the Neo also enter learn mode? if it doesn't it is not connected to the network and toolkit won't see it. (it should still reset though). If not, try connecting it by entering learn mode on it then immediately press the top 2 buttons for 2 seconds.

    When resetting, you need to do the double quick-press quite quickly for it to register.

    also, try double quick pressing another button. You can use any button providing you repeat the double quick press on the same button.
     
    Ashley, Aug 5, 2020
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  9. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    It is 1.11.0
     
    Bigdave, Aug 5, 2020
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  10. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Read it here. https://www.cbusforums.com/threads/learning-wireless.2913/#post-16248

    I re-read my comments above and I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Unless I cycle the power via the breaker, no button pressing does anything. Power cycling it, seems to allow interaction for about a minute, as per the post above. the switch is stuck and needs reset.

    I am unable to enter learn mode. I mentioned in my post earlier that I have undertaken the steps you mention, with no luck.


    I am going to muck around with various combinations.

    One thing that is bugging me is no where in any Cbus doco, does it tell you how to add a wireless switch to a house with a Gateway and active switches. but this is only a challenge if I can get this Neo actually responding to local button presses.

    Again, appreciate your interest.
     
    Bigdave, Aug 5, 2020
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  11. Bigdave

    Ashley

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    Yes it does. That's why I said you need to put in an existing switch into learn mode before you put a new switch into learn mode.

    Was this a new switch or a second hand one?
    Cycling the power is only necessary if learn mode has been disabled via toolkit. When you first power it up it enables learn mode for 5 minutes irrespective of the toolkit setting.

    If you can't get it into learn mode unless you cycle the power, then try cycling the power, put the existing SATURN switch into learn mode first, then the NEO and as soon as it enters learn mode press the top 2 buttons again for 2 seconds and see if the lights then flash together. If so, go back to the SATURN, hold down the top left button and quickly double press the top right button. If successful the light on the NEO should be flashing alternately. This tells you it is connected to the existing network.
     
    Ashley, Aug 5, 2020
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  12. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    thanks Ashley, I will try this during day time.

    one question, at what point do I push the button on the Wireless gateway? It seems not at all as it will learn from the other switch.

    edit: It’s a 2nd hand switch
     
    Bigdave, Aug 5, 2020
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  13. Bigdave

    Ashley

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    You only use the switch on the wireless gateway when you originally install it to set up its house code.

    When adding new switches into a wireless network (or doing anything else in learn mode) it's important to go through all the instructions carefully in your mind a few time before actually doing it. Pressing the wrong button on the wrong switch in the wrong order tends to mess things up a bit :)

    When you have everything linked to the same house code, if you put any switch into learn mode, all the others should enter learn mode. Once you are at this stage, it's time to go to toolkit to do any other programming. I don't recommend programming groups/scenes etc via learn mode.
     
    Ashley, Aug 6, 2020
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  14. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Aarrgghhhhhh

    I finally received a Saturn 6 gang 2 channel dimmer wireless. I put in the the place of the Neo and moved the Neo to my garage.

    It worked well, both sets of lights on and off.
    Time to network. Put my Saturn 4 gang wireless into learn
    Put the Saturn 6 into learn mode, it would not pickup the other switch which is 3 metres away. Followed the instructions carefully, multiple times.

    Went to the booklet, it says in section 10 if adding to a new network, reset it. So I did this (picture attached)

    it worked exactly as per the instructions, except... switch has orange led’s and now appears bricked.

    can’t seem to enter learn mode, does not even do local control anymore. Reset breaker and still no function.
    Same as my Neo.

    I am so mad I could put my fist into the brick wall it is mounted on.

    anyone got a miracle.
     

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    Bigdave, Aug 6, 2020
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  15. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    So, I finally was able to have someone watch the switch as I reboot the power at the breaker.

    the switch (6 gang two channel saturn) flicks thru 2 at a time orange of each pair of buttons, twice, and then does nothing.

    So, before I throw these all in the bin, if a switch can't boot, is there any secret anyone knows from when they were current to recover them? @NickD ?
     
    Bigdave, Aug 10, 2020
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  16. Bigdave

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Hello.

    A long time ago I had a lot to do with this product. I have been asked to come out of retirement to try and answer the questions here.

    The first step in dealing with this problem would seem to be that all the devices should be reset to detaults. A power up from the breaker DOES NOT DO THIS.

    Please read on, I will try and explain as best I can.

    HOW SETUP WORKS

    A side issue: Wireless units are set up using LEARN MODE.

    LEARN MODE can be disabled. If learn mode is disabled, then you can't change the settings. This is good to stop the kids fiddling with it, and bad if you want to change it.

    Therefore, learn mode has a time window (after a power up from the breaker) - about 30 minutes from memory. During that time, if learn mode was set to disabled, it will be enabled for that time window only.

    This is therefore your get-of-of-jail-free card.

    Learn mode can only be disabled using Toolkit (through a gateway), so if you have not ever done that, you don't need to worry about this issue. Likewise a clear to factory defaults will reset this, so again after that level of clear you don't need to worry about turning power off at the breaker.


    HOW LEARN WORKS

    If devices are joined in a network, then entering Learn on one unit will put all the devcies in the network into Learn.

    You can tell by entering learn and then inspecting (by walking around) the other units to see if their indicators are blinking.

    THEREFORE: If you put a unit unit learn, and find another unit that does not have blinking indicators, then the unit without the blinking indicators is not in learn and is not part of the same network.


    HOW TO CLEAR A UNIT TO FACTORY DEFAULTS

    STEP 1. Start Learn on a C-Bus Wireless unit by pressing both of the top two Local Control Keys and holding for 10 seconds.

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on the Local Control Keys of all C-Bus Wireless units in the network flash very quickly in an alternating pattern.
    • This shows the C-Bus Wireless unit is ready to learn.
    • After about 5 seconds the alternating flash pattern slows down.
    • The C-Bus Wireless unit is still ready to learn.

    STEP 2. Go to the unit that you want to clear. Double click any key.

    YOU SEE:
    • All indicators on that unit will go out, apart from the one on the key that was double-clicked.
    STEP 3. Double click the same key again.

    YOU SEE:
    • All of the indicators on the unit will flash quickly.
    STEP 4.
    Option a: Oops: I don't want to clear this unit: do another double click on the same key again.
    Option b: Yes I really want to clear this unit: Press and hold any key on the unit for about 1 second.

    YOU SEE:
    • All of the indicators will stop flashing.
    RESULT:
    (1) The unit has been cleared.
    (2) Other units in the same network exit Learn.

    NOTE THAT WHEN YOU CLEAR THE UNIT, IT HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE NETWORK.

    Therefore: If there are multiple units in the network, and you want to clear and take them out of the network you need to repeat this process, at each unit, one at a time.


    HOW FORMING A NETWORK WORKS

    Networks work by the units having a "house code". This is just a random number, allocated in the factory when the unit was made. It can't be changed, and its value does not matter.

    The house code allows you to have 2 or more C-Bus Wireless units in the same RF range (so they can see each other) BUT you can make separate networks. (Think apartment buildings with units that can see each other but we want them to be in completely distinct networks.)

    If units share the same house code, then they are in the same network, so they can talk to each other.

    (Again as a side issue, the idea of a house code is not in plain wired C-Bus, because it is not needed. Things are in the same network if the piece of wire goes to them.)

    So the problem we face is: how do we get 2 units to share the same house code?

    The method used, assuming we have 2 blank units (from the factory or after BOTH have been cleared):

    - We put them both into learn mode
    - By use of a special button sequence, ONE OF THEM (it does not matter which) pushes to the other "hey you - I want you to run on house code XXXXXX".

    After that they share the house code and are in the same network. At that point, if you enter learn on one of them, they both go into learn, because they are both talking.

    Now: how to grow the network beyond 2 nodes?

    The same process is repeated, but order of operations is very important.

    The principle is that:

    - We put the new device (the one we want to join to the existing network) into Learn, and then a special operation on that unit to put it into HOUSE CODE LEARN mode, a special sub-mode that opens the unit up to accepting a house code

    - We then go to the network we already have, and put it into learn

    - And then (on the network we already have that we just put into learn), we use the special button sequence to push out the message (which goes to the unit that is in house code learn but not on the network yet) "HEY YO DUDES NOT ON A NETWORK... SUCK UP THIS HERE HOUSE CODE AND JOIN MY FUNKY NETWORK".

    You get the idea.

    Basically:
    1. Put the NEW device into learn first, and then house code learn.
    2. Go to the existing network, put it into learn, and then use the key sequence to push out the message saying "join this network"

    This is best done to add units to a network, one at a time.

    The way C-Bus Wireless works, you could have 2 brand shiny new clear devices, put them both into house code learn, and then go to your existing network and put it into learn, punch out the "join my network" message, and both of those new ones would join. But that's waaay too complicated to explain and we are trying to keep it simple.

    Why keep it simple? Because you wear out a lot of shoes running from unit to unit doing these steps, it is tedious, and there is no other user interface. You need to think the process through logically and slowly and be patient. Trying to do too much in a single go will lead to confusion and swearing. (Bear in mind, things like Bluetooth were US$100 for a chipset the size of a matchbox when C-Bus wireless was created, and the smartphone had not been invented, so other clever means of UI setup were not around, not viable, etc etc).


    SO THE STEPS TO FORM A NETWORK FROM 2 UNITS ARE:

    STEP 1. Pick a C-Bus Wireless unit. We call this the SLAVE UNIT. This is the one you will be joining to the network. It will accept the house code. Start Learn by pressing both of the top two Local Control Keys, and hold them for 10 seconds.

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on the Slave C-Bus Wireless unit Local Control Keys flash very quickly in an alternating pattern.
    • This shows the C-Bus Wireless unit is ready to be put into a network.
    STEP 2. At the same SLAVE UNIT, AND WITHIN 5 seconds, use the key sequence that allows this unit to accept a house code - ie go into house code learn mode.
    - This is: Press and hold both the top 2 Local Control keys and hold for 2 seconds. (You need to see the indicators... on a Saturn this can be difficult, try and move your fingers a bit to the side).

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on the Slave C-Bus Wireless Slave Device will change so they all slowly flash on and off together.
    • This shows the Slave C-Bus Wireless unit is ready to learn a network.
    STEP 3. Now go to some other unit.
    Option a. If you don't already have a network this can be any other unit you like. We call this the NETWORK MASTER UNIT..
    Option b. If you already have a network, go to one of the units already formed into a network. It does not matter which one, though physically closer to your new unit is probably better.

    THEN: At this unit, put it into Learn (as usual, press and hold the top 2 buttons until the crazy blink starts, which shows it is in learn)

    NOTICE: at this point you have NOT transferred the house code.

    STEP 4. On the NETWORK MASTER UNIT that you should now still be standing in front of: Press and hold one of the top two Local Control Keys, and while still holding this key, double-click the other of the top two Local Control Keys. Then release both keys.

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on the C-Bus Wireless Network Master unit flash together very quickly for about a second.
    • Indicators on the C-Bus Wireless Slave unit(s) flash together very quickly for about a second.
    • All affected units exit the Learn setting, and all indicators are off.

    At this point you have joined 2 units into a network, or if you already had a network, you just added a unit to that network.

    AFTER THAT YOU STILL NEED TO GO BACK INTO LEARN TO SET UP GROUPS AND SCENES.


    TIMEOUTS

    The above is all very nice, but there are timeouts. Units don't stay in learn, or house code learn, forever.

    The SLAVE UNIT that you walked away from and left in house code learn mode... you have 3 minutes. After that - that slave unit will exit learn mode by itself.

    So don't dawdle.

    Likewise, Learn mode has timeouts (I don't recall what they are).


    NEXT UP: LINKING A GATEWAY

    You need an existing C-Bus Wireless network (unless linking a single unit to a gateway).

    The process is very similar to joining a slave to a C-Bus Wireless network, except the gateway is placed into house code learn mode.

    IT IS MUCH LESS CONFUSING IF YOU FORM THE WIRELESS NETWORK AND THEN JOIN THE GATEWAY TO IT.

    (Trying to set up a network with one unit, join gateway, then join other units, is possible but very easy to get confused. Form the wireless units into a network first, and then join the gateway to the wireless network.)

    STEP 1. Press and release the LEARN button on the bottom of the Gateway.

    YOU SEE:
    • The LEARN indicator on the Gateway flashes slowly.

    STEP 2. Choose any C-Bus Wireless unit in the existing C-Bus Wireless network.

    STEP 3. Start Learn on the C-Bus Wireless unit that you chose: Press both of the top two Local Control Keys and hold them for 10 seconds.

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on all of the C-Bus Wireless units Local Control Keys flash very quickly in an alternating pattern.
    • This shows the C-Bus Wireless units have entered the Learn mode.
    • After about 5 seconds the alternating flash pattern slows down - this is normal.

    STEP 4. At that C-Bus Wireless unit that you put into learn: Transmit the house code. Do this by
    - Press and hold one of the top two Local Control Keys, and while still holding this key, double-click the other of the top two Local Control Keys. Then release both keys.

    YOU SEE:
    • Indicators on the C-Bus Wireless units flash together very quickly for about a second.
    • The LEARN Indicator on the Gateway flashes very quickly for about a second.
    • All affected units exit the Learn setting, and all indicators go off, including the gateway.
    RESULT: The gateway is now joined to the wireless network.

    ------------------------------

    I hope all the above is of some use and help.

    I have had C-Bus wireless running in parts of my house, untouched and trouble free for something like 15 years. It's a long time since I went through the learn processes.

    To work out the above steps I found some documentation that was done during the original development: Field trial guide written in the Dept of Geeks, and used long before the products were publicly released, that documentation got polished up quite a lot after that.

    Also you may see some of the steps above are in different orders to your documentation. My steps above are not the fast efficient steps to join lots of units all at once. My steps are the simple steps that you can repeat over and over, should work every time, and should be simple with less worry about "fast, clever, efficient but confusing".
     
    ashleigh, Aug 22, 2020
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  17. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Wow. Really just wow

    I am impressed that you guys cared Enough to grab you to help and then the length and precision in the response. I am so impressed.

    I will print off the post and read it again in detail as I have read it on my iPhone. The other Ash said “make a plan, write down steps and then do it”

    My issue is the Two “slaves” have been factory reset (done via the doco) and now don’t appear to want to ever go back into learn mode ever again, which is obviously not good. A Neo 4 button single relay and a Saturn dual dimmer 6 button.

    my current situation is:

    Neo has had learning mode disable by toolkit (due to crash). It is stuck in On meaning you he local channel is one and cannot be turned off by local buttons

    I DO:
    Reset breaker killing 240v For 30 secs

    I SEE:
    Neo flash orange lights as it powers up
    Light comes on, no led lights on Neo

    I DO:
    Press local buttons holding for 10+ seconds
    Nothing happens
    Have retried 20 times

    the Saturn is exactly the same except the default is off. The lights they are wired to can’t be turned on by local buttons.

    I have a third which is the “Master” meaning the first which is functioning fine.

    inhad my electrician mate remove the Saturn and put the bog standard light switch back on and the light work just fine.

    I will try your steps on the Neo and let you know. My issue was getting them to network, but this turned into now getting them back in learn mode.

    I appreciate the time you have taken with this post.
     
    Bigdave, Aug 22, 2020
    #17
  18. Bigdave

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Hello BigDave

    The fact the units give the "happy dance" blink pattern after power up is a good sign. It means the firmware is in there and running.

    Everything was done for a reason. Things like the happy dance at power up consumes code, is a pain to write the code, needs to be tested and so on. But it is there because it tells you something. It tells you that after power up the code is running and the unit is not stone dead.

    So the big challenge you face is is:
    - How to get it into Learn
    - How to get the outputs unstuck

    Some thoughts here. Bear in mind its a decade ago since I "retired" from Clipsal, so the memory has faded a touch.

    Anyhow, obvious things to consider.

    1. Is the unit the right way up?

    When oriented vertically (so the "long" side is vertical), you have 2 ways to do it. The unit is symmetric. We think of these as having a right way up and an upside-side down, which great if you are in the know, From memory the label on the back should have the writing the right way up in order for it to be considered "right way up".

    This one might be a bit patronising, but it's pretty easy to have it upside down, and so you end up pushing the button pair at the opposing end, which won't do a lot.

    In you are of a Victorian persuasion where most switches are mounted "side on" - ie the long side is horizontal, then the perception of "top 2 buttons" is different again, and they will be the leftmost or rightmost pair.

    Basically, use the label at the back to get the orientation of "top" correct.

    It could be as simple as this... or not.

    2. The stuck outputs might be due to load type.

    The C-Bus Wireless dimmers had a min load of abot 25W incandescent, and are unlikely to work all that well on a modern LED load unless theres a fair bit of it.

    The C-Bus Wireless relays had a min load of I can't remember what - they are fine on incandescents, floodlights, and similar. Also fluros with a nice big PFC cap in. Again modern LED loads may cause them a struggle.

    So make sure you simplify as much as you can, use incandescent loads only for both, and make sure they are both over 40W. This way you remove load type as a complicating factor.

    This may or may not help.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm a bit concerned by your statement that one of the devices had learn disabled by use of toolkit at some time.

    There were 2 magical setting in toolkit, as I recall. These were to disable learn, and to enable / disable security & encryption.

    So a bigger layer of complication in C-Bus Wireless is that communications over the air was also encrypted, but this was optional. It is possible to turn encryption off on a network, and doing so needs to be done rather carefully.

    It is a remote possibility this was also done, and off the top of my head I don't recall if that setting survives the clear function, or not. Lets hope it is cleared. It certainly should have been.

    Over the next couple of days, I'll see if there is anything else I remember.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
    ashleigh, Aug 22, 2020
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  19. Bigdave

    Bigdave

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    Hi again Ash.

    I did have to mount the switches "The Victorian" way because they are built into brick, hence why I need Wireless, but I know which are the active. This is not condasending, your approach is sound. I work in IT and you need to challenge every assumption. (or you have cameras)


    I was looking at my one working wireless switch in my toolkit. I updated two buttons by swapping the Groups they toggle. When saving it, my toolkit reported a critical error. after this, my one working "master" is was also dead.

    This happened to my other switch too, as in, Critical error saw the last of it.

    I was crest fallen. I had "the guy" for wireless and no working wireless switches.

    I then saw your post. I read that you too were perplexed.

    I scrolled down and read about load. All of these lights are LED, I had an electrian replace them and put the wireless switches on.

    What triggered was I noticed instability in my working switch, and I noticed that I had recently replaced the Halogen with LED and the two remaining halogen has just popped. So i had reset it with only 7W being drawn.

    At Woolies they only have a max 23 W bayonet and 7 W Spots. I replaced the bulbs and restarted the breaker.

    It's a miracle!

    the previously thought to be dead Neo now has a 23W LED but is allowing learn mode. Thank the maker

    The "Master" Single Channel Saturn is now working again after I gave it the load it needed (I suspect this is a double entendre) It is now back. I now will follow your instructions to add it to the network.

    My other Saturn 2 channel dimmer is not connected as it was dead, I will now hook it back up and ensure I put as much load on each channel as I can. How much load does it need?


    Thankyou both Ashleigh and Ashley. You have restored my faith in humanity.

    I am off to bunnings to buy incandesent bulbs that dimms that take a lot of load.
     
    Bigdave, Aug 23, 2020
    #19
  20. Bigdave

    NickD Moderator

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    @ashleigh... this is (just one of the reasons) why we miss you. Thanks.

    @Bigdave... if the minimum load is the problem your sparky should be able to get you a thing called a load correction device... amongst other things these are designed to provide sufficient power to 2-wire devices such as C-Bus wireless, when used with low-power loads. Clipsal sell one called a 31LCDA, but I'm pretty sure ashleigh's own company also makes one under the Diginet brand, so in this case I suggest you try those instead.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Aug 25, 2020
    #20
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