Multi Sensor- Day Motion

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by Thomas, Jan 14, 2005.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas

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    I am battling with the PIR function during daylight, i.e. when the light level is above target. I have tried both Toolkit 1.1.4 and V2 to get this right, but it seems that I am missing something.
    Even when I assign both the PIR day and night to one key, only the night function activates. I have also checked the potentiometers, A being light level (fully anti-clockwise), B being PIR sensitivity (fully clockwise).
    I also verify the light level reading of the sensor when testing for motion response.
    In essence all settings are default except for assignment of groups and timers.
    I would appreciate any ideas.
     
    Thomas, Jan 14, 2005
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  2. Thomas

    nguyent

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    Multi-sensor PIR daylight function

    Hi,

    The PIR daylight function by default is set as Retriggered Timer (if you go to the Key Functions tab in the GUI).

    If you want to use the PIR daylight function as the same as the PIR Dark + Movement function then choose the key functions for short press, short release, long press & long release.
     

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    nguyent, Jan 17, 2005
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  3. Thomas

    Newman

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    Thomas

    Don't use the same key for the two functions or you will only get the night function as you observe.

    Set your Virtual keys 1 and 2 to "PIR Day Move" and "PIR Night Move" respectively. On the Occupancy tab make sure that the Light + Movement is assigned to Virtual Key 1 and Dark + Movement is assigned to Virtual Key 2. If you have assigned the group address to the PIR function then on this Tab the Virtual Keys 1 & 2 should both indicate the same group address. If they don't then you'll need to go to the Blocks tab and assign Keys 1 and 2 to the same block.

    If you are unsure of the potentiometer settings then just assign them in the UI to unused.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Newman, Jan 17, 2005
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  4. Thomas

    Thomas

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    Hi there,

    Firstly many thanks to both of you for your assistance, it kept me busy for a while. Both suggestions make sense to me, but try as I might, I can only get one virtual key to do anything. This is with Toolkit (1.1.4)
    I have then done the programming via V2, which is as far as user friendliness is concerned, not ideal for the Multi Sensor. However, I managed to do what I wanted.
    This I then read in via Toolkit to see how it is interpreted there.
    Against the functionality, i.e. one circuit responds during daylight, another at night, what is shown in the UI does not make any sense. Both virtual keys are set to Night Movement, yet one responds when the light level is above target, as desired.
    I would appreciate an explanation about this.

    Then another question to Newman. Do I understand you correctly, that when the potentiometer tabs are set to ?unused? that the actual potentiometer setting is no longer relevant? In other words, the target light level is purely set by the software, irrespective of a possible adjustment of the potentiometers subsequently?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2010
    Thomas, Jan 18, 2005
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  5. Thomas

    Newman

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    Thomas

    You need to also show what's on the Occupancy tab to give the whole story.

    The PIR Day Move and PIR Night Move functions relate to how the unit will respond relative to the current Light Level target.

    If the ambient light level is above the Target then the unit activates whatever virtual keys are selected on the Occupancy Tab under "Light & Movement". If the ambient light level is below the Target then the unit activates whatever virtual keys are selected on the Occupancy Tab under "Dark & Movement".

    What actually happens to the groups associated with that virtual key is determined by the Function drop-down box up the top of the UI. The PIR Day Move function won't turn on a Group, but it will re-trigger a timer to keep the Group on if it is already On. The PIR Night Move function will both turn On the Group if it is Off and retrigger the timer to keep it on for the pre-determined time.

    Yep, you are understanding me correctly. Light level threshold goes to purely the software setting, sensitivity to default, timers unaffected, etc.
     
    Newman, Jan 18, 2005
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  6. Thomas

    Thomas

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    Hi Newman,
    I have attached a screenshot showing the Occupancy tab. I fully agree with what you are saying, that is, I would expect the sensor to respond as described.
    But from my understanding, if both functions are set to Night Motion, I should have no response when the light level is above target. Yet this is what happens.
    By the way, the way I test this is by moving the sensor around to make it 'see' light levels above and below target, and then testing it's response.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2010
    Thomas, Jan 19, 2005
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  7. Thomas

    Newman

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    Thomas

    I think you misunderstood me a little bit.

    The Occupancy Tab shows me that when the ambient light level is above the target then the Lounge Light 1 will be controlled and when the ambient light level is below the target then the Lounge Light 2 will be controlled. This is a key thing to understand.

    The bit in the Function drop-down box indicates what events will be applied to the group and says nothing about the light levels they will actually respond to as that is determined on the Occupancy Tab.

    The PIR Day Move and PIR Night Move are simply names applied to a set of things that will happen to the Group Address. As it turns out, the PIR Night Move Function will turn on a Group if it's not already on and then start the timer. The PIR Day Move only triggers the timer to run if the Group is already turned on. These names are used so that the functions are consistent with the 5751L and 5753L PIR Products. You can test this yourself by changing the key functions to PIR Day Move, turning the groups on manually and then triggering the PIR. If your timers are set to 10 seconds with the OFFKEY expiry command then they will be turned off in 10 seconds.

    In reality, you could change the Virtual Key Function to anything else available in the drop down box (except Scenes) so that PIR detected movement causes that action to occur. For example, selecting a custom key Function when movement is detected at night you could issue a RECALL to set the level to 25% with a 5 minute timer and if movement is detected in the day time set up a second Virtual Key to do a RECALL to 100% with a 5 minute timer. That's just an example but hopefully it shows you what is possible.

    It's a very, very powerful product, but it takes a bit of familiarisation to get the most out of it.
     
    Newman, Jan 19, 2005
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  8. Thomas

    Thomas

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    Hi Newman,
    With the risk of sounding stupid, my problem is to understand why I have to set the function for both virtual keys (1 & 2) to Night Move in order to get one of them to act as Night Move, and the other as Day Move, or above Target Light Level, and Below Target Light Level. This is the function I have now, but should not have it when I look at the functions assigned to the Virtual keys.
    The point is, that how can I program this indeed very powerful device, when the functions assigned have no relation to what you get?
     
    Thomas, Jan 20, 2005
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  9. Thomas

    Newman

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    Thomas

    I think the confusion comes from the names given to those Functions. Perhaps names such as "Retrigger Timer" and "Turn On & Timer" would have been better choices than "PIR Day Move" and "PIR Night Move". Those names were chosen because that is how they are used in the normal PIR products such as 5751L and 5753L.

    Example:
    Typical use case is that the ambient light level is below the target. The person enters the room and the PIR detects them whilst in the "dark" state (below target lux). This triggers the Dark + Movement keys to be activated. The PIR Night Move Function is usually associated with those keys and it then turns on the group address and starts the timer running. Now that the light in the room is on the PIR is in the "light" state (above target lux). If motion is still detected then the Light + Movement keys are activated which typically have the PIR Day Move Function assigned to them. This merely re-starts the timer so that as long as movement is detected the group address/light stays on. There is no point trying to turn the light on when in the "light" state because it is already on and this would only generate wasteful and unnecessary network traffic, all that is required is to keep the timer running. Ever since the first C-Bus PIR was released this is the way they have always worked.

    So in summary, PIR Day Move will only keep a group On if it's already On whereas PIR Night Move will both turn a group On and start/keep the timer running and this was done for historical reasons. Perhaps a change of name is in order?
     
    Newman, Jan 20, 2005
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  10. Thomas

    Jeff

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    This is an interesting thread to a newbie - frankly, English is my first language and I still have trouble understanding the Toolkit dialogs.

    Does anyone have a link to documentation for programming Toolkit for the SENPILL units?
     
    Jeff, Mar 5, 2018
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  11. Thomas

    Wonkey

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    Wonkey, Mar 5, 2018
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