Monitoring 90 Homesafe systems

Hi and Seasons Greetings everyone,
I have two doubs regarding an application consisting on the use of 90 Homesafe
systems on a project, that will need to be remotely monitored.
- Connection to the CBUS itself:
- Since this is for a closed condominium and I don't want to loop the CBUS connection inside each villa, is it safe to take each cable out to a box where connection to the CBUS is actualy done? Do we just tighten the wires together?
- Monitorig software:
- A need to monitor all sites from a central point will be needed, in order to view any irregular status - will C-Gate software be applicable, or do I need to use Schedule Plus (or other?)?

 

I am no expert, but would it not be better to use a panel that has ethernet (or use serial and line drivers) capabilities and remote monitoring as part of its package. C-Bus was never meant to be used as a security comms.

Hopefully someone that knows a lot more about alarms can comment

Mick

 

Thanks for your input, Mick.

Although I understand your comments, my evaluations has been based on:
- Cost (MinderPro will be an option)
- No lighting on the CBUS so only ocasional messages will be on CBUS (each Homesafe will only generate up to 4 alarms)
- Naturally continuing to use Clipsal on the solution

More comments, please?

Best Regards

Jose

 

You shouldn't use C-Bus for security, it's too easy to defeat.

If you short out the wiring anywhere you will shut down the whole system.

 

Help from the boys!

JayS

Where abouts is this project and what is the timing. You might benefit from some help from the boys on the "inside"..

 

Thanks for the input, Phil. This project is to be implemented in Portugal, Europe, and it's to be specified right now, meaning that actual implementation will never occur prior to next Summer. I should be getting support from England but... they're all on holydays... so help from "OZland" couldn't really be better.

JayS

 

Thanks for your very relevant input. Does this mean that everything on the CBUS side will become inoperative "only" while the short lasts?
I suppose that the each Homesafe will still work on it's own, there just wouldn't be monitoring capability, right??

JayS

 

Homesafe security

Hi all, JayS, for what purpose are you wanting to monitor the security panels. You need to be a little careful in what you are trying to achieve. If you are attempting to monitor the status and alarms on the security system, you are best to engage a security control room to attend to the monitoring for you. This can often be financially beneficial to you, and create an ongoing revenue stream by you "retailing" the security monitoring to the condo owner each quarter. i.e, you buy the monitoring for $5 per week, and sell it to the owner for $8 per week.
You need to be wary of what the owners expectations are as far as security monitoring goes. If you tell them you are monitoring their security system, exactly what does that mean to them. You also need to watch the insurance companies. If there is a break-in etc, you will be the first person they will speak to, believe me, i've been there!!!!!!
Post what it is you would like to achieve and we will try and help you out.

 

Important points to start.

JayS
There are a couple of very important points you should consider at this stage.
The first is security and security type functions have little to do with standard C-Bus ops, comms, functions etc, even though many tie the two together for automation functionality and convenience. Remember security has a higher requirement for function and system integrity than lighting control.

One of the main points you mentioned was 'monitoring' of up to 90 systems. There are a couple of "main" or traditional methods for this. Central station monitoring via telephone line and onboard dialer (as detailed by Darren Blake) or Aux tie to another system. In the Aux tie us use a relay on the homesafe panel or output expander to 'tie' to or interconnect to another system. Seeing as you have mentioned up to 90 Homesafes to be monitored, indicates this is a significant residential estate. The central monitoring / management system will have to be commercial grade to accommodate the 90 panels. Each homesafe panel would be connected to an input on the central panel. You would connect the relay in each homesafe to a standard zone input on the central panel just as you would connect a monitored device like a movement or smoke detector. The relay connection should include an end of line device (resistor). The central system may have a system keypad or other annunciation devices at a security hut, facility managers office etc.

For the above suggestion each dwelling would require a cable (security) to be run from the homesafe panel location to the central panel location. As the central (facility) panel will be commercial grade the cable runs may be to input sub panels / data gathering panels (Challenger speak). These sub panels are usually networked back to the main panel by Ethernet or RS485 LAN.

You can see from this C-Bus has little to do with monitoring security systems for primary security operations. C-Bus does monitor the status of security systems 'locally' for the purposes of convenience and automation eg. System disarmed = trigger welcome scene. System in alarm = trigger all lights on scene etc. A real good one is Security system armed = goodbye or good night scene. If you have logic capabilities then really handy things like security system armed and time is greater than sunset then random control of selected loads for several minutes etc. You will notice from all of these examples C-Bus follows the status of the security and not the other way around.

The last thing you evey want to do is extend the C-Bus network outside the perimeter of any single dwelling to a central location.. BIG can of worms.

Hope this helps...

 

Thanks for the aproach, Darren.
The project is for a closed condominium, with their own security, where there will also be someone doing the monitoring - it will allways be an issue within the condom. responsability.
Since that each villa will only be able to generate 4 alarm types (intrusion, open door/window, gas, flood) the intended monitoring is exclusively for the internal security service to know what's hapening where.

I'm being solicited for a solution from an consultancy/engineering office and they are having dificulty in finding the right solution. Strategicly it would be important for us to provide this solution.

My first option is MinderPro with Ethernet board but I still need to sort out the "monitoing" side of the system - is there a readily available software to manage that?
MinderPro does become expensive, from the invester's point of view, reason why I had the intention to provide for a lower cost solution - what I allways make shure is that the pros and particularly the cons are very clear.

Please, let's carry on this dialog in order to be able to provide an adequate solution, preferably from the Clipsal portfolio.

Best Regards

JJSantos

 

I clearly get the Message, Phil.
I would need to provide 4 relays (contact closures) from each dwelling, for the monitoring issue, which does not seem practical - I see it more in the sense of the individual panel being able to digitally comunicate to the "in permises" monitoring facility what's the irregularity. MinderPro??

Many thanks

JJSantos

 

Homesafe Monitoring

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the info. I see three ways to tackle the problem at hand for you.
1) As per Phils suggestion, fit the Homesafe panels with a 4 relay relay expansion board (may have to source from NESS Security), and wire 4 pairs of cables to locally installed expanders for say either a Concept or Challenger panel. These expanders can communicate via ethernet to the main controller. This controller could then be setup with a software front end (Acceptnet for Concept) providing a graphical representation of the location and type of alarm activated.
Each expander is normally 16 zone as standard, so you can wire a minimum of four condos to each one, as per your monitoring requirements.

2) If the panels are to be set up for remote dial-out monitoring anyway, have the condo security guards added to the contacts list for all alarm conditions. i.e when the alarm is triggered the control room is to contact both the home owner and the security guard on-site.

3) Purchase and set-up alarm monitoring software specifically for the condo development. This software is generally available in different sizes, depending on the number of panels you wish to monitor. For memory, the Homesafe can be set up to make two notification calls, one to the condo monitoring station, and one to the security monitoring station off-site.

I hope this isnt to confusing, keep on posting and Phil and I will help as much as we can from the other side of the world.

Cheers,

 

Do things the right way first time

JAyS
As previously stated by others, The Tecom chalenger would be one of the the obvious choices as it can be connected to a local pc and using the Titan software and your local on site guard house security can monitor situations as well as an outside Security Monitoring station singularly or in tandum at the same time as well.
I think you have missed a very important point throughout this discussion.
"Security costs Money" and what price do you put on your security.
On a large job of 90 units an allowance would of been made by the developers for a security program. If they got it wrong then it is not your job to bring in a botched up patch up which is destined to fail from the start and which will tarnish your name and reputation.
Be very clear what the requirements are to be met from the developers. If their requirements are rock solid and they have not budgeted correctly for it, it is not job to look for other solutions which are not feasable or are of a poor quality that will damage your reputation.
Clipsal do not have a solution available for what you require off the shelf, specially as you use the word "Security Monitoring of Alarms". This is a specialist field and requires knowledge and know how from people within that field. you can certainly integrate clipsal products to a specialist package. Please don't try to re-invent the wheel at a low level as it will only cause you hard ache, most proberbly cost you financially and destroy any reputation and credibility that you might have .
I spend quite a bit of my time fixing up behind others, and the fix up costs usually start at double and upwards of what it should of cost doing it correctly in the first place.
No of this is meant as a dig at you, but please consider that the bigger the project and when things go wrong or have to be redone the bigger the cost to you. Don't think that the developer will ever say that they got it wrong. They will blame you for their lack of knowledge and know how.
One last point. The monitoring of Security, Duress, Gas, or industrial alarms in any format needs to be set up correctly and on protected loop cabling which has integrity and fail safe measures in it. The position you would put your self in if an incident occured where someone was hurt or killed due to a problem on your lighting bus and messaging could not get through would be a legal night mare for you. The lawyers would have a field day.Your competitors would end up working on your lawyers new hightech homes of which you would be funding in your defence costs.
Regards Stephen

 

Thanks everyone for the cooperation. Stephen and Darren have, in absolute terms, defined the way to go, including some products to take a look at.

The warnings are very clear and, naturally make all the sense - after these dialogs, one would need to be a real a.s to go the wrong way.

I'll keep you guys informed on the way the issue is moving.

Happy New Year Everyone

JayS

 

Have you considered purchasing equipment designed for monitoring security system.
There are various types on the market but the most common equipment is that of the Ademco Contact ID Known else where in the world as Point ID This equipment would then be like monitoring station mentioned earlier and is available in many formats the simplist I have seen is a circuit board inside a PC which decodes the information and prints out a report.The Home safe panel can send contact ID info via a phone line

If this is not possible have you considered using the facility of communicating to a mobile phone or land line. The panel dials the mobile provided the property does not block its caller ID info (silent number/ Ex directory) The mobile could be programmed to show which property the call came from.
There are a limited number of beeps which can be heard by the recieving end to determine what the alarm is, though this is not easy to understand. This option is built into the Homesafe.

As a third option Voice diallers are available ( not from clipsal) which can dial a mobile or land line as above but can be programmed top give a message dependant on the alarm type. these units are a stand alone piece of equipment and are available in the UK.

 

Thanks for the input, Wonkey.

Naturally you present a price based solution, which is great. Nevertheless, the monitoring would need to rely on the presence of a telephone line or GSM, which I prefer to maintain as a backup.

Thanks

JayS

 

Right on the money BSS Great advice...