Minimum equipment?

Hi Folks,

I'm brand new here - read heaps of your posts and it all sounds great so far.

I'm about to start construction of a new house - I don't have the budget to add C-Bus devices everywhere up front, but am seriously considering at least adding Cat-5 everywhere so at least some of the cabling work is done.

I've downloaded C-Gate and hooked into it with VB.Net via the TCP/IP interface - I'm happy to run with that for now and see how it goes. Unfortunately VB.Net is my strongest language, or else I'd probably try the DLL route (I've read about everyone's VB.Net / DLL issues already - won't even waste my time on it!)

My question here is .. If I plan to have a PC with my own scheduler and hook it up to my own touch screen - what then, is the minimum equipment I'm going to need?

Cheers,

Matt

 

Minimum equipment

Hi Matt,

Aside from the obvious items like switch inputs and dimmer/relay outputs all you will need is a 5500PC serial interface or a 5500CN network interface.

Both of these provide the connection between the C-Bus and your PC. The 5500CN is a bit more expensive but has the advantage of using an ethernet connection rather than RS-232 so you don't have to locate the interface next to the PC (and you can avoid the use of USB dongles if your PC doesn't have a serial port).

Paul

 

wow .. That'll make it easy to start off small.

My ultimate goal is to make the theatre room snazzy, add control to some internal and external lights, and add some IR capabilities for heating and cooling.

To make my life simple later I plan to run Cat-5 to as many places I can think of to hook into later on. The ceiling will be accessible (single-storey house), so I figure it's the walls I need to pay attention to. Is it reasonable to run a Cat-5 cable to pretty much each light switch and powerpoint?

 

Just a thought....

Matt,

Have you thought about using wireless c-bus?
It might suit your application for doing room by room and it utilises the existing 240 Volt cabling. This can be seamlessly tied into 'normal' c-bus via a wireless gateway.

We had a mix of wired and wireless in our last place with no problems over a twelve month period.

Mark

 

Actually no, I hadn't.

Sounds like I've got even more reading to do. Will that ultimately make it more expensive in the long run? Or am I really just looking at a difference of buying a wireless transmitter?

When I started this whole process I was initially looking at X-10 (finding resources on hooking into C-Bus with my own .Net code was proving a challenge). I was extremely hesitant as it's not known for reliability, nor are the features that extensive. But if wireless C-Bus is reliable and not a lot more expensive, it might prove to be a great option!

Thanks for all the advice so far

 

Also keep in mind that the "easiest" part of a retrofit C-Bus installation is the Cat5 cabling... It is very very difficult to wire the mains cabling in a way that suits both C-Bus and Conventional wiring.

For the Cat 5 (control cables) to the switches, you can use the existing mains cable to pull Cat 5 down / though to those positions at a later time. And there are some legal considerations (segregation) relating to running both Cat 5 and mains wiring close together.

But the BIG issue is that the wiring "system" or layout / routing of cables is completely different for normal wiring vs c-bus. Read this thread, which related to a very similar question :

http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1778&highlight=retrofit+c-bus

In the case of conventional wiring initially, and then retrofit to C-Bus... the best (only viable) option is to use C-BUs Wireless. It was purpose-made for the job.

 

A considerationis if you wanted to be totally wireless is that you will still need to create a small wired network to attach the wireless gateway to to then be able to access the wireless networks via c-gate. This would consist of a a PCI or CNI, a power pack and Wireless Gateway all sitting in a box.

You will also need to consider the use of the included C-Gate network licenses. C-Gate ships with 2 free network licenses, and the above senerio will consume both of them. Extra licenses can be purchased of course.

Wireless C-bus is a great way to go if you are retrofitting into existing house. If you are building new, like you are, then you can achieve much more by using pre-wiring for wired c-bus.

If you have cost constraints to outfitting the entire house with wired then you need to carefuly plan on how to migrate to c-bus overtime. Espcially if you are looking to do more than lighting (multi-room audio, multi-zone A/C, Energy saving).

I would love to hear what our integrators suggest as a stepping stone installation. Perhaps wired for main living areas and using standard switches for bedrooms with a view to moving to wireless for bedrooms in the future.

Things to also consider are the look of the switches. Wireless only comes with orange leds and no DLT options.

 

Topography is king

JohnC is right on the money buddy. The wiring is the key.

Even without having any Cbus hardware, you should run the light cable from your designated node zero to every zone you would anticipate controlling in its own right. A zone being say the 4 downlights above the dining table that wouldn?t need to be controlled individually rather than as a zone. If you have a couple of Pro Harts on the wall and would like to spotlight and dim them for mood, then that would also be a separate zone. The wastage will then be limited to the switch wires dropped from this point to your standard light switch.
The Cat5 for your cbus input devices (switches, pirs, cbus touchscreens etc) should be the pink cbus to comply with the mains rated requirement and you should run that to every conceivable point and a few you would never conceive. Before the plasterboard goes up, take digital pics and log everything everywhere.
Being a geek, you will no doubt be running Cat6 and RG6 everywhere else in the home but generally speaking this has little application in CBus.
Another good idea would be to download the introductory manual and read up on how the wiring for CBus differs to current domestic wiring protocols.
If you don't initially run the wiring in this manner then it is almost a given that you will never upgrade to wired cbus.
Your VB may come in handy later on, say if Clipsal introduce a gateway to Vista Media Centre but for now Cbus uses its own control language and there is no benefit in the pc to be on. If you want to get into PC controlled automation then you will need to consider another system that can link to Cbus or simply bide your time in the knowledge that the world is converging very fast.
Oh and by the way, you should use a licensed Electrician to do the actual wiring but the research is free and well worth your time and anyone can actually programme the CBus.
All the best with it.

 

You should also checkout CQC as your touch screen software.

I began by writing my own as well, before I discovered CQC. It would have taken me years to get the same functionality as CQC, so I ditched my own and now use it.

You can also hop over to their forum and ask any questions you might have.

There is a DIY pricing structure, so if your that sort of person, you can roll your own.

Oh, and as my sig suggests, I liked it so much, I now have a working relationship with them.

Cheers

Rohan

 

That was a bit of reading (But well worth it!)

I'm starting to get the gist of how to prepare myself for all this.

One thing I have noticed is that just about everyone puts their C-Bus equipment into a box in a cupboard. That obviously makes life easier for any future maintenance, etc - but if ceiling access is easy as pie, is there any reason why I couldn't stick it up there instead?

Both my father-in-law and brother-in-law are electricians Trouble is, they both think CBus is crap, so I'll just have to put up with their unwanted opinions! At the very least I should be able to source some of the Cat-6 cheaply.

 

Do not install any C-Bus units in the roof space. The reason is that electronic equipment has a temp range that it will work within, roof spaces get very hot and this can course problems with you equipment. This is not only applies to C-bus but the majority of electronics.

 

I'm not sure that this is entirely true.. electronic transformers for downlights for example.. and the older C-Bus one channel relays were designed to go into ceiling spaces I thought?

 

I think the one channel relays were made to be fitted in light fitting (office Fluros etc).
Wonkey is right the operating temp on the data sheet is 0-45', and most roof spaces go above 45' in summer thus if you install C-Bus in roof spaces it's not as per install specs
In saying that i have install C-Bus in roof spaces, mainly in retro fits and alike, when there is no space to install in other locations. If you have to install in a roof be sure to allow good airflow room around the board (meaning don't put the insulation roof bats on top or hard up to the boards )

If you are building from scratch you would be mad to install C-Bus or anything that may need to be serviced in the roof. Put it in a cupboard or better still make some space for a room services room. It will keep everything in one place (data, tv, lighting, etc etc) and from exprience make the job easy to service and work on when the time comes. And for you matt i'm sure ur father/brothe in law might not complain about C-Bus as much if they have a nice room to work in and not a small, dark, hot roof space

just my 2c

 

thanks!

Thanks all for your many replies .. I've done lots of reading and more research based on your input - and learnt lots already!

No doubt I'll have some more questions as I start to piece things together a bit more in my mind. Hopefully soon enough I'll be able to answer some questions as well.

Cheers,

Matt

 

I would like to add that Node Zero is highly overstated and in many instances adds enormous cost to the average project.

What I intend to comment on by stating this is the fact that node-zero (the main control room) is overkill once the house reaches a certain volume. For example.

Four levels, 80 modules. If the control room is on the same level as the bedrooms (level 3) (given that is more central) then the trunk line required to feed level 1 and level 4 is about 4 inches (10cm) or more in diameter.

IF however you take advantage of the power of networking and treat each floor as its own level then all you need is a backbone power supply to each level and one strand of C-Bus networking.

This effectively creates one network with large satellite nodes and limits the amount of material and cabling required to create one building.

Dragging all cables back to the control room in all cases creates an excessive use of material and does not take advantage of the C-Bus capability.

An average kitchen in itself will generate in the above mentioned house no fewer than 30 wiring connections for power. Extending all those wires to the control room is murderously tedious. All that one needs in this case is a localised node and a backbone to the rest of the house (one main C-Bus data cable and one spare in case something goes wrong).

Using this concept I was able to cable all the ethernet, alarm, C-Bus and power into multiple concealed nodes which can be modified once a panel is removed.

I specifically chose the Challenger alarm panel because that is able to operate via numerous remote nodes called DGP's (data gathering panels) which similarly network back to the main panel with one cable from each remote node - along a common backbone or star topology.

This flexibility also isolates zones for trouble shooting. Zones can be technician terminated and operated as isolated areas for various repairs.

Compare for example the cost of running 10 Cat 6 cables to a lower floor or installing a switching hub in a service area on the same floor and only one Cat6 to the next floor with a spare. Each year since the install the network hardware has been upgraded and the speed improved for next to nothing as the prices of equipment fell.

 

I am glad that there is at least ONE person in the world that agrees with me regarding the stupidity of having all loads wired back to a central point.

The "nodes" concept discussed by Tobex is far easier to design, wire, configure, maintain and extend in the future.

 

Phoneman, you really need to get over this !

There is NO withholding of information about C-Bus, either by Clipsal/CIS or here on the forums... HOWEVER it is not legally or morally correct to offer technical information regarding electrical wiring here in the forum.

C-Bus, just like structured cabling, networking and many other forms of modern wiring is not really a subject that comes easily to many "wire-jerker" type electricians. The methodologies of design and installation are completely different with C-Bus compared to conventional wiring, and a LOT more things need to considered and allowed for at the design stage to ensure that the installation actually "works", and also remains "upgradeable" in the future..

There is no "eliteness" about it - but you DO need to have an open mind and experience is very very valuable. Many electricians have tricked themselves that they are smart and/or experienced enough to do a Lighting Control system installation... then stuff it up... then blame the product. It's not just C-Bus that this kind of thing occurs with.

 

I do phone support for some fancy niche software. I reach boiling point very quickly when a customer tries to tell me that "the software is giving the wrong answer". "No, it's not giving you the wrong answer - either you have a problem with your data, or what you're looking for is different to what you found."

PEBKAC = problem exists between keyboard and chair.

Is there a similar acronym that applies here, I wonder?

 

Phoneboy

John, can I just clarify / paraphrase what you are trying to say (which is also the belief of many other SI forum readers) -

Phoneboy, you are an IDIOT!

In one breathe you constantly ask for help from us "self proclaimed C-Bus Electrical Guru's" and in the next you are shooting us down.

All I can say is good luck with your C-Bus shed installation in Adelaide and please don't bother to ask us "self proclaimed CBus Electrical Guru's" any more questions!



By the way, stopping PM me with your worthless DRIBBLE!