MCB's and Wire

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by Phoneman, Dec 13, 2006.

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  1. Phoneman

    Phoneman

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    MCB's and Wire

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Having looked at several install pictures, I note there are a wide range of MCB and RCD sizes used.

    Also the Power cables running from the MCB's to the output devices seems to vary from 1.5 to 2.5mm on the same units.

    Is there method to this madness or does it come down to the sparky?

    Why do I ask, I want to buy the bits and save time and money
     
    Phoneman, Dec 13, 2006
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  2. Phoneman

    tobex

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    It depends on the electrical demands and the electrician. It may to a lesser extent depend on which materials are available on the site.

    I have seen electricians cut corners to the distress of the home owner. If the wire is too small then the MCB will be small and you may find that does not meet the needs of the house.

    I have seen some beautiful homes ruined by what would be $1000 worth of cable. The electrician did not allow enough power to each level of the house and all of the IXL tastic heaters had to be down rated and the lights fitted with less powerful globes.

    If however you get it wrong you will be putting your house and life at risk.
     
    tobex, Dec 13, 2006
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  3. Phoneman

    Phoneman

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    Over engineer it then

    So tell me what a decent job would have.

    I gather you wouldn't use power wires at 5cm thick and MCB's rated at 100amps on a 8 channel dimmer.

    Let me guess that a 16a MCB/RCD for each output device and 2.5mm power cable with say a 100amp/RCD over the lot! Over the top but good enough?

    I want to know these things so the sparky does not have to cut corners. Everything is here on site and even cut to size and maybe even shaped so he only has to sing to me. (do-up do-up)
     
    Phoneman, Dec 14, 2006
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  4. Phoneman

    pbelectrical

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    From a sparky

    Please one thing to remember is that your average sparky relies on mark up on materials for part of his profit margin. In effect you would be asking them to take a cut in their profit which in todays market there is no reason for them to do this. Also consider that if you engage a reputable tradesman not only will you be assured of a quality job that complies with all the regulations but they will allow sufficient redundancy or head room if you like for future additions or changes. As well as this you will only be paying for what you need, consider your stove circuit, are you willing to fork out perhaps a couple of hundred dollars for a roll of 6mm2 twin and earth TPS to only use perhaps 30 meters and have no avenue to sell the rest.
    I have followed your posts from the start and do understand what you are trying to do, who amongst us doesn't want to save a few bucks. What you must appreciate is that a lot of people on this forum make a living from this kind of work and are therefore a little hesitant to be seen to be helping you to undercut their peers, not withstanding the legal implications of giving technical advice to an unqualified person of unknown capabilities.

    Regards,

    Peter Brown
     
    pbelectrical, Dec 15, 2006
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  5. Phoneman

    Phoneman

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    Margins

    I respect your position about margins but....

    I actually make my own lunch and take it to work because I refuse to pay $6 for a pie and coke. It could be argued that by using such initiative, I am denying the Deli owners the opportunity to make a buck.

    Now I don 't have deli owners crying foul when they see me eating my pastrami sanger.

    Funny thing is, when others at work see me sitting on my esky eating, they tend to feel pangs of hunger but there is no pastrami for them so off to the deli they go. Now guess who wins there? Me for saving a couple of bucks? The workmate who gets a "fresh pie and coke" or the Deli owner who is selling more pies because others find themselves wanting to experience the edification they saw me enjoying? Or maybe, heaven forbid, we all win in our own way.

    Now why is it I could not find a single C-Bus installation underway in Adelaide's most advanced technology suburb? Maybe not enough people are experiencing the pangs of hunger.
     
    Phoneman, Dec 15, 2006
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  6. Phoneman

    tobex

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    I know what the problem is. All our lives we were told that you get what you pay for. But then you do some digging and realise that its not true because #1 product costs about 2x more than #2 product but only has about 10% more stuff in it.

    So you ask yourself why spend more if it isnt really there. It should only cost 10% more.

    I ask myself that question all the time and then I go to the Apple website and buy the most expensive, overpriced, over-rated 24" LCD mail order even though I could have bought it from Dell for $650 less.

    The reason has nothing to do with what is inside since I know that already. I simply want to know who to blame when it turns to _____ . I have a double warranty which ensures that I will be less likely to throw $1540 into the rubbish bin.

    Similarly, when my client phones me 6 or 7 years later and asks for service. It costs very little to see me for a few hours. That is because I charged them a fair and honest price for doing the job properly in the first place and making a service call is quick and painless for all concerned. The "over specified" nature of my work tends to make my quotes very long and very expensive. However when I say "all inclusive" it makes basic electrical installers look like "variation mungrels".

    Seeing as you are your own client and your own supplier you have fallen into the trap of thinking that there is a common ground between you and other contractors. For the above reasons I can assure you that there is nothing special about a customer that knows the product well. Personaly I deal with a number of electrical engineers who seem to know more about C-Bus than I do but they certainly dont have the experience in dealing with human interfaces and user interaction that I do.

    You can spend as much as you want on electronics. If the human design is no good then it is annoying and painful. Interaction is the silent half of automation. THings may be motorised or sensor driven but I know that it takes more than random inputs to make an environment.

    There are hundreds of people spending 4 or 5 years at university learning how to design a button that a person can press. Then there are other people trying to put those buttons into action for a useful purpose. If you can determine which level you are operating at then you will be able to appreciate what the cost and service is for. If not then its going to be a long and exhausting project as you learn all of it yourself.

    Just for me to be able to design a fascia panel that goes on a wall will cost me about 20K and take me 2 years. All the customer knows about this is that it costs $500 per panel. It may look and appear simple but it is extremely difficult and time consuming to provide that service.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
    tobex, Dec 16, 2006
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  7. Phoneman

    Phoneman

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    Again I agree in part

    I am one who places great value on both true quality and of course perceived quality.

    I am not however one who can be "conned" into believing that a product is worth more than one would reasonably expect it to be worth. Now the product I refer to here is one I have spent millions of dollars on in years past and that is Labour!

    Despite being described herein as an unemployed bum, (I contend I am a has-been) I am putting C-Bus through my new home because I want a product that I believe in and I believe has a future. That is also why I committed time to learn a bit more about C-Bus but as just one element of a delusional ideation.

    Some correctly said I could have googled and found the calculations or checked the Australian Standards 3000/2000 and done it myself but that would be stupid, dangerous and illegal. Furthermore, why would I waste time learning about something that risky when according to google I can pay someone $19.18 an hour to do for me.

    (http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/LR/LabourRelations/Media/Electrical_Contracti1.pdf)

    In the mean time I might cause some to flip out and launch into personal attacks on me because I tell it how it is but that really doesn't matter. I will get exactly what I want, when I want it and at a price I am willing to pay, and not one cent more. That is how it works in the real world and I make no apologies for it.
     
    Phoneman, Dec 16, 2006
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  8. Phoneman

    darrenblake

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    Cheap as chips

    I could not help but notice the weblink indicated in the previous post.
    Phoneman, i understand you are a resident of South Australia - why post a link to the West Australian Department of Consumer and Employment Protection.
    Different awards for different states!!!!
    Secondly, the rate you indicate I'm sure is an indication of the base award.
    What about other costs associated with operating a business and the employment of technical staff i.e vans, tools, insurance, phones, stationery, electricity, rent, licenses, warrranties,the list goes on.
    Perhaps you would be better talking to your local NECA (National Electrical Contractors Association), they will be able to provide you a real world indication of recommended charge out rates used by the electrical industry every day.
    At the end of the day, i would be resonably confident that most electricians you have spoken to are not looking to take you for a ride, but have a legal obligation to complete the works in a safe, lawful, and tidy manner to get you into your new home. I have unfortunately seen in the past homes that have been damaged or destroyed by fire because of shoddy electrical work. Insurance assessors are very good at finding poorly installed electrical services when it comes to them putting their hands into the pay out kitty.
    Lastly,electrical work requires inspection and sign off by an Electrical Inspector, Electrical Contractors will not risk thier Contractors license, by cutting corners to reduce costs because a customer does not see value in paying $60 per hour for their expertise and protection. Many however would be more than happy to have you assist in performing the "cable monkey" (as you put it) duties for them.
    Remember, without electrical sign off for your certificate of occupancy, you dont get to move in.

    P.S
    If you have something to say to me, DONT private mesage me, put it up for ALL to see!!!!!!
     
    darrenblake, Dec 16, 2006
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  9. Phoneman

    rhamer

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    No Please Don't!

    I'm not taking sides, but for the sake of the rest of us, if you don't agree with something, state your point, then please leave it alone.

    Cheers

    Rohan
     
    rhamer, Dec 16, 2006
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  10. Phoneman

    marka

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    move on!!!

    i agree


    (this could go on forever):
     
    marka, Dec 16, 2006
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  11. Phoneman

    Richo

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    I have deleted posts with personal attacks. Don't post them. Thread closed. Next offended gets moderated or worse.
     
    Richo, Dec 17, 2006
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