MCB's and Wire

Having looked at several install pictures, I note there are a wide range of MCB and RCD sizes used.

Also the Power cables running from the MCB's to the output devices seems to vary from 1.5 to 2.5mm on the same units.

Is there method to this madness or does it come down to the sparky?

Why do I ask, I want to buy the bits and save time and money

 

I am assuming here that you are not an electrician, phoneman...

Installations need to be made in accordance with the local Wiring Regulations. There is a HUGE variation between countries as to what is possible and/or allowed.

The sizes / ratings of the MCBs depend on what loads are connected to them, and the size of wiring used. For example, in Australia the MCB must be rated at lower than the cable rating (including derating and voltage drop as calculated in accordance with AS3000). So, you can use 1.5mm cable to save money, but that circuit must be protected by a suitable MCB (usually only 10A).

Since the installation must comply with Wiring Standards, if you are not a licenced electrician then you are unable to calculate or verify all the respective clauses that must be complied to. It would be a LOT easier to have the electrician calculate that stuff so that you end up with a safe, legal installation. An illegal install might just mean no insurance cover in the case of a fire, injury etc = not recommended !

Considering that MCBs are only about AUS$3 each, I doubt if you will save any money whatsoever in buying stuff like that yourself. Furthermore, the cost of wiring is almost irrelevant compared to the cost of C-BUs equipment and associated programming.

Sorry if that sounds unhelpful, but electricity is deadly stuff and usually you only get one chance.

 

Well Bugger Me

Seems JohnC reads what he wants and critiques far more often than responds.

I think I may have mentioned once or twice that I am getting a sparky to do the job.

I am also going to buy most of the gear myself and have it ready for him.

It can't be rocket science, I have seen some pretty thick responses from electricians.

So I guess I should grab some 16A MCB's and some Power wire bigger than 1.5mm. That will go nicely with the 6 x 8 channel dimmers I bought at less than half price. Now where can I find an MCB for $1.50?

Lets see if I can't get a few more bright answers before I let loose the genius that charges me $50 per hour to undo and do up a couple of screws.

 

Have a think before you type.

Phoneman, What you may not know is that may people on this forum who can help and give you answers are or once have been electricians. So by implaying how dumb and basic there job is may not be the best way to get help.

 

I think you'll probably find that your insulting, arrogant and dismissive attitude will get very little positive response. You continually belittle the members of this forum and dismiss there work as simplistic, yet you are the one that is asking for help. With each new post you make you reduce your chances of having anyone help you. I can't understand how you think anyone on this list would be interested in helping you.

 

Richo

Couldn't have said it better myself! Unfortunately Phoneman, Adelaide is a very small place and those who could help you, now won't. Good luck finding a tradesperson who is willing to perform this 'simple task'....

Am I an electrician? ...Yes.

Am I insulted by your posts? ...Yes

What do I charge per hour for C-Bus? .... $120.00

Do I get my $120.00 per hour? absolutely

So.... Who's a dumb electrician? Do the sums..... I probably earn more than you for a profession that 'isn't rocket science'.

Please, tell us what you do for a profession. I would like to then come to you, insult you and your experience and then offer to pay you a reduced sum behind your bosses' back.

Read your own posts back as if they were applying to your profession then....ask the question. Would you help? I think you know the answer

 

phoneman

judging be the amount posts you have sent , you seem to have p---ed off
and insulted everyone.

good luck getting anyone to do anything for you.

and if you find any one chargin $50 AN HOUR to install , ill give him a job
working for me.

we are charging the same as conformist and have miles of work

so have fun with all your gear over christmas.

 

Phoneman,
Wondering if you can help me, with your punchdown tool (the one that dosent even have to do up / undo anything!). I need a few phone points put in. House is 70 years old with the larden plaster walls. Cant be too complicated though. I will supply cable, jacks and scotchlocks so you dont need a thing except the licence card you got after a few weeks at night school. Iam willing to offer $25/hour. Interested?

 

Wow - a bite

Seems someone sparked a few sensitive souls into responding on mass!

If you look back a few posts, you will see I asked respectfully on more than one occasion for the exact support several of you said won't be forthcoming if I mock but guess what, it wasn't forthcoming anyhow so forgive me for stating the obvious candidly.

Contrary to what some of you want to believe, this CBus stuff is simply using software to drive hardware to make electricity do what it is told.

That means if you understand the Software and Hardware component, the last bit should be easy and that is why you don't need a "CBus Electrician Guru" to wire it up, just an electrician.

Contrary to what some of you want to believe, CBus is not at closed shop and to belittle anyone who openly admitted they are not an electrician by saying they could spend a ?lot of money? getting a cat 5 licence and that Electricity is "deadly stuff" deserves the very response it got.

For the record, I found several electricians who are willing to do up for me and at less that $50 per hour and no they are not Cbus trained because according to them, there simply is not the demand for it (still). To suggest I don't respect the knowledge qualified sparkies possess is puerile. I wouldn't be asking the questions in the first place if that was my opinion. Remember the response was my response to the earlier replies and or lack thereof!

Maybe those who jumped on the damn wagon might like to look back a few posts and offer the support they suggest they were capable of offering and explain why they didn?t. Hindsight doesn?t work that well when you are the fish and you take the bait!

I remember one guy (dood) asking for support on this forum (T666) and he was mocked and pilloried for trying to understand Cbus and ask some questions.

I have also had many a debate about how ill informed a closed shop is to establishing a product and here we are 5 years down the track and still the product is looking for market acceptance with a topography that is all but unheard of in all but the most luxurious homes.

I assure you, the top 3 homes in Town don?t have it because they don?t see its value or refuse to pay for a retrofit. Drive around Mawson Lakes, the so called technology suburb and see how many bits of Pink Cat 5 you see in new homes and maybe you will understand my derision.

I won?t take a step back for mocking the response I got and I certainly delight in the feathers it ruffled.

For now however, I will keep asking questions and for those too precious to answer them, keep your ?guruesque? knowledge to yourselves. For those with something to share or support to offer, feel free, I assure you there will be many sitting in the shadows who would respect you for doing so.

Now I might be wrong here so I am going to have another look at the "CIS Logic Examples" thread in this forum and see how many ideas there are. I might also look at some of the Pics you so proudly show of your work!

What 2 Logic Example Messages? No Pics. Doh!

 

CBus Electrician Guru

Having just re-read my post I thought I would preempt the question 'so why ask here for help" and say that I figured a CBus electrician would better understand what I wanted to achieve and would be more than willing to work with me to achieve that objective.

Seems all I found was a closed shop and in retail parlance we all know that if a shop stays closed for too long, the customers stop coming!

 

Typical phoneman

Typical, phoneman up to your usual crap again. Insult everyone that might have advice or an opinion that you don't agree with. Ask for help from people that have the experience to help you then in the same breath insult & be little them for offering an opinion. You obviously think you are entitled to FREE help from licenced and qualified people that have invested time and money to achieve the skills necessary to be able to help idiots like your self.

I, like others are pissed off by your attitude. I will now give you some FREE advice for your installation.

1 Stick all of your relays and dimmers where the sun does not shine.

2 connect to power using your cheap MCB's

3 Make sure you do up your own terminals so you don't have to pay professionals like us a lot of money to do what you are able to do yourself.

4 Do all of us a big favour and turn the power on yourself.

5 Personally, I don't mind whether you do this with 1.5mm or 2.5mm cable.

I personally think you owe everybody thats tried to help you an appology. Try modifying you attitude and you might get a bit further next time. The few that you haven't insulted yet, might still be prepared to help you.

PS
Are you also beating your plumber, builder, painter, concreter & associated subies down to 10 bucks an hour because they dont offer you value for money either.

Anyone who might think that your recent posts are isolated one off's should go back and read some of your earlier posts.

 

I agree with BSS!

1 Stick all of your relays and dimmers where the sun does not shine.

Yeah I got a couple of 72 pole switchboards going into the NODE and aint no sun shining in there.

2 connect to power using your cheap MCB's.

Yeah, got the Clipsal MCB's pretty damn cheap. About half what you would charge I bet.

3 Make sure you do up your own terminals so you don't have to pay professionals like us a lot of money to do what you are able to do yourself.

Good idea, that is why I bought the ferrules and a good crimper! Makes it quicker for the do up!

4 Do all of us a big favour and turn the power on yourself.

See that is the bit I can't legally do, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such anger.


PS
Are you also beating your plumber, builder, painter, concreter & associated subies down to 10 bucks an hour because they dont offer you value for money either.

Actually.... oh forget it...!

Old posts, yeah good idea buddy, how about the old chesnut! One year on buddy and still nothing! You better hope for world domination in 12 months!

 

The support you have asked for if I remember, was to have someone 'working for the man' do the work for you for some extra cash. That concept dissapeared a number of years ago when the requirement for a contractor's licence stopped an 'A' class electrician doing 'cashies'... The liability threat is just too great so most won't do it. We have to issue Certificates of Complience... legal documents.

The electricians who are willing to do this work for you at such a price, are probably the same ones who are extremely busy working for $19 a point and don't have time to recognise the demand for C-Bus in the market.

This is just not true! Over 70% of our installations have been in the average home, in average suburbs... We've even done some in Mawson Lakes!

Sorry... this is just wrong! I know virtually all of the top homes in Adelaide actually do have C-Bus as well as Crestron and AMX too!

I've done so. There are display homes, private homes even the local pub there has C-Bus!

Might I suggest that it's time to stop the ranting, take a deep breath, maybe have a cup of tea and apologise to this group who you have clearly offended. If you want help with C-Bus programming, then I'm sure you will find some support here. If it's electrical help you need, then I'm afraid you will probably continue to get silence from this group. It's more a case that this information is dangerous and you must apreciate that we all take it seriously.

I'm still curious from my earlier post to know your profession though

 

Sorry, but no more help from me Phoneman... There was something about the way that your responded to my reply (above) that gets right up my nose. I am definitely not elitist, and if you seach this forum you will find that I go to extreme lengths (and absurdly long, informative posts) to assist people who visit here.

What amazed me is that the information I provided you *IS* the facts, and I actually did answer your question. There is a careful design process required to work out what size MCBs and Cables are required. It is knowledge of this process (and the numerous other things necessary to obtain an electrician's licence) that you are paying for, not the muscle power to twist a screwdriver.

And remember that this is a Cbus Forum, and NOT an electrical forum. If you are polite, you will receive plenty of assistance regarding the design and programming of C-Bus here. But nobody is going to tell you how to wire your own house, for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed in this and the other threads that you have started.

Cheers, JC

 

Nothing becomes of Nothing - King Lear

JohnC,

Seems you believe that telling me what I can't do is answering the question "what is used to do this?" especially given I start by admitting I can't and won't do it myself.

If you think I was asking how to wire my own house when I said I would be your cable monkey then you obviously don't understand the concept of leadership and if my delusions of grandeur amount to being "a cable monkey" then I am surprised so many in here find that offensive and threatening.

If you don't understand what I am saying and simply want to indulge yourself, then I don't think I am really missing out on that much anyhow.

And if it really is a CBus forum where "C_Bus users can share information and help others with C-Bus" then I think I have come to the right place.

My question's were regarding the most dangerous yet least complicated part of "C-Bus" namely the 240v side, the last 30 feet. I said from the outset I was NOT an electrician, have no desire to be one, nor to acquire the skills they have to play in the last 30 feet because I have too much respect for zappo.

Furthermore, I figured if one of the seven or so dimmer/relays have a maximum load capacity of X amps per channel then the maximum MCB needed would be Y amps. The maximum size power cable to connect the positive side of the MCB to the positive input of the cbus unit would thus be Z. Now we all know I could easily google the answer but I foolishly thought that in such a product specific forum, the answer would be easily obtained.

We all like to visit the cockpit of a jumbo jet, look at all the controls and buttons and levers. Hell I have even held the steering wheel thingy of a plane and flew it. But, I am no pilot so if I think I could even contemplate taking off or landing that plane I am kidding myself.

Contrary to the belief and much to the chagrin of the C-Bus Electrician Guru's who seem to hunt in very small packs, I, and many others have acquired the skills and training to deal with the many kilometers before the last 30 feet, you know, the low voltage bit. In fact I have taught my 14 year old son to play with 99 percent of C-Bus, do you think I am putting him in danger?

So JohnC, feel free to keep your community service announcements to yourself but if you have anything to actually contribute, I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Phoneman, Your so clever - work it out for yourself!!

After following several threads posted by Phoneman, and his constant attack on the product this forum was created to support, and the numerous people who have offered advice, may i suggest Phoneman be removed from this forum.
This forum was created for creative people to offer advice and ideas for a top shelf product. To have to constantly read Phonemans dribble bores me and i find his insults tiresome and childish!!!!

 

vote 1 for phoneman

Now thats a statement that we all should be worried about, namely that you have bred. We now have two know it all experts to tell us how to do everything. Im curious, did you find a med student working for cash to deliver your son because it was cheaper than paying for an obstetrician.

I think you have missed the point . We are the organ grinders here(qualified,experienced,talented). You are the monkeyNON all of the pevious). The monkey does what it is told not the other way round.

I still note that you have not answered the question of what you do for a living. My bet is you are un-employed and living on the dole and have no trade, hence why you seem to attack anyone that has the qualifications and experience that you lack. If you are employed ,my guess would be a parking cop.

There is no need to send me a private email in return for my views. Just keep puting them up here on the forum instead for everybody to read. It would be a shame for other readers to miss out on your kind words of wisdom.


For the forum,this is what phoneman sent me via email last night

Titled Precious aren't we
You forgot to mention the engineer! He is now redundant too. Autocad imported to Pryda, Hyne or even Truecore software does the engineering for you and all you get is a signature of compliance.

See the world has moved on and you haven't kept up buddy.

Read the old posts and see how right you were then and where we are now?

And don't play Mr clever then spell apology with two p's! Makes you look a tad silly.

I don't mind being dissed buddy, especially when I am right.


Phoneman, I am sorry that I left engineer out of my post . I suppose he is another over price trade qualified person that charges too much for using just a pencil and paper to carry out his job. We all know that you can supply the pencil and paper so he can reduce his rates to you.

I am still surprised that you need to ask any questions of us in this forum as you seem to have all the answers anyway. I would love to see your final result after building completion and don't forget to post pictures so all of us lame qualified people can have a laugh. I also pity your new neighbours having to live next door to you as you build using your 10 buck an hour contractors to do what you can't.
Keep it up buddy, this world needs more talented people like you !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well Said!!!

Perhaps for the benfit of all those over-priced, redundant electricians and engineers who contribute to this forum, Phoneman would like (If he has the guts) to tell us what qualifications he posseses, and the line of work he is in.

at least give those of us that have to read your rubbish the opportunity to comment on your chosen profession.