Mac OSX automation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by paddy2042, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. paddy2042

    Darpa

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    Well said Darren.
    And thank you for clarifying several points in this recent debate.

    Something that just occured to me, and it might sound stupid to many, but just curious of whether it would be of interest to anyone who does not use the Windows OS.

    If someone were to build custom embedded PCs, about the size of 2 VHS tapes, that ran a very slimmed down version of windows, used minimal power, but were capable of running all relevant CIS software for C-Bus related programming and operation (Ie; Toolkit, PICED), and could be accessed over a network from any Linux or OSX computer, (using VNC for example), all while being hidden away in a cupboard with a CNI or PCI, or even just sitting next to people's ethernet network hardware.

    Would that be a helpful solution to people's problems with CIS software being Windows dependant?
     
    Darpa, Aug 30, 2009
    #21
  2. paddy2042

    wappinghigh

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    Absolutely!

    You bet ya....this would be great! :)
     
    wappinghigh, Aug 30, 2009
    #22
  3. paddy2042

    wappinghigh

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    Yeh Yeh understood...:D

    If it wasn't such an issue, why is it raised at every point one conference?
    ....still using windows xp?? :rolleyes:

    ..Who can really be bothered with ALL the networking/update problems/viruses/ old xp interfaces/hastles of running PC's in the home..I've got other things to do, like enjoying and tweeking cbus :):):):)

    So ANY way of helping Apple uses would be useful. Adding more access to cbus/toolkit/PICED via a web/http interface (like you've done for WISER), would be the obvious move....

    As a matter of interest have you seen what a mac interfaced platform is REALLY capable of...? see www.savantav.com

    ....Now tell me why it's not worth at least some initial "planning ahead" for SOME sort of better integration with OSX....
    ....And with everything moving online to things like "cloud" OS's, google, mobile me, exchange etc, think 10-20 years out...will Windows still even be around???
    ....I mean why isn't it within the realms of possibility in the not too distant future, that everyones cbus file is actually stored by a secure backup server at CIS, kept in sync realtime with some sort of device like Darpa mentioned, and accessed and edited from "the cloud"......
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2009
    wappinghigh, Aug 30, 2009
    #23
  4. paddy2042

    Darren Senior Member

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    I didn't say it wasn't a significant issue. For some people (Mac users), it is an issue. For the vast majority of users, it is not an issue at all.

    It turns out that Mac users are very passionate, and tend to express their opinion whenever they have an opportunity. It is good to be passionate, we just ask that people understand that what it important for them is irrelevant to others.

    I agree to an extent, but this is missing the point. We are not arguing that PCs are a better platform. We are saying that the majority of our users have PCs and want our products to run on PCs. As I explained above, we don't have enough people or time or do everything, so we try to make the most people happy that we can with the time and resources we have. This applies to product development in general. We try to develop products that are most needed, and give the most "bang for the buck".

    Agreed. It just comes down to priorities. Putting a huge amount of effort into helping Apple users at the expense of all of our others users is not really good business sense.

    The best short term solution is to provide guidance for how to get our software running on a Mac using a virtual machine (or similar solutions). There are a few posts already about how this can be done. Maybe we could generate some documentation on various alternatives for Mac and Linux users. Would that be of use?

    Here I have to disagree. Providing end user access to control via a web interface is very useful, and the Wiser product does this very well.

    Providing installer tools via a web platform would provide no benefit to the end user at all. It might make things easier for some installers, but web based tools would have a lot of other problems. The main problem is that we would never be able to justify the amount of work required (see previous post). It would require a complete re-development. You would not just be able to tack a web front-end onto existing tools.

    Very nice, but nothing that could not be done with Windows, Linux or one of the embedded operating systems.

    We aren't ignoring this issue entirely. We do have discussions from time to time about what can be done now and in the future. The problem is that "some" support is not necessarily better than none at all. If you have one application (say ToolKit) which runs on a Mac, you still need some way of running the other applications (PICED, MARPA, CIRCA, TICCA etc). So, to a large extent, it is really all or nothing.

    Impossible to say. It seems very likely that there will be a gradual transformation of Windows into something else we would not even recognise today.

    The problem is which of these myriad bandwagons do you jump on? There is a never ending stream of new technologies, each promising to solve all of your problems. In 2003, we looked very closely at OSGI. It is a platform independent technology (Java) and has a plug-in architecture. It is quite a neat bit of technology. It was going to take the world by storm and allow every product/system to interface to every other one. Clearly it hasn't achieved this yet. Maybe it will one day, but if we had bet the farm on OSGI then (2003), by now (2009) we would be in all sorts of trouble.
     
    Darren, Aug 30, 2009
    #24
  5. paddy2042

    wappinghigh

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    1/ Re "virtual windows machine"...yep more information would be very useful. :)

    2/ Re web access/platform for installers into Toolkit and PICED within say PACU..I think this would be VERY useful! My Installer is logging on now any changing my WISER offsite all the time, this is saving me heaps of time and money. But as you know not all of cbus can be tweeked this way. :confused:

    3/ Alot of mac users like myself have moved on from Windows because they are "over" spending time on all the hastles of the operating system and want to spend time on the applications themselves. Perhaps you could develop a "simple" interface that runs on all platforms/or a browser, for end users to tweek basic stuff and for simple firmware updates and leave the complicated Windows stuff of toolkit etc to the installer to tweek via the net. Control 4 uses a similar approach with their "Home Edition" of Navigator. I really hate spending time (again!!) with all the hastles of serial or USB connection into Windows..."failed again..." or mucking around with what is now a very old xp interface...

    I'll give you a good example. I've just installed new cbus thermostats, and getting them "set" right for our house is quite an ordeal, because it involves detailed changes in toolkit. It's plain silly, that my installer has to come out everytime, bring his xp laptop, sit on a little chair cramped under the stairs to do this sort of fine tuning. Same for group address changes, power saving, lighting changes or small changes to logic...eg say moving the time forward when the "lights" turn on at a set time in the morning. Whatever the changes may be, it would be easier for basic logic and other simple stuff to be either made "tweekable" using another interface, or accessible via the installer offsite. Nobody said we want access to ALL the runnings of cbus. It's too complicated. But simple access to changes that might matter for everyday living would be really useful..

    4/Darpa's idea of a "dedicated" embedded Windows machine running in the background, permanently and exclusively connected to cbus is a great idea. Removes all the cbus-windows interfacing problems and if this was networked with a secure WAN port to the outside world, could provide simple access for point ones/installers. It could even have a simple program running backup of important files at regular intervals...that way leave all the complex toolkit stuff to the installers and let us get on with the fun stuff of using cbus...:D

    Anyway...thanks for listening!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2009
    wappinghigh, Aug 30, 2009
    #25
  6. paddy2042

    sasha

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    You can apparently use C-Bus tool kit to connect to a remote network using a CNI or wiser. Doesn't this already do what you want?

    You can also get piced to transfer projects to a colour c-touch through wiser. You should be able to transfer projects to a c-touch or paca through wiser and C-Bus. It might be slow, but it is better than a long drive to a distant site :)

    I have heard of people using remote desktop or VNC to remotely program a site too.

    It seems to me that web browser applications are not going to add a lot of value. There are more important things to do. Like a ceiling fan control :)
     
    sasha, Aug 30, 2009
    #26
  7. paddy2042

    NickD Moderator

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    Hi wappinghigh.

    I know where you're coming from.. I'm one of the engineers here at CIS, and I'm also a mac convert... I bought my fourth one last week... the first one is still running and has been 24/7 for nearly 6 years.

    That said... I'm also realistic... most of the software we write here is for the purposes of commissioning C-Bus. It's a tool. Part of the job of installing C-Bus requires you to have the right tools to do the job, and for better or for worse, one of those tools is a Windows computer. I use a lot of other tools in my job on a daily basis... CAD for drawing schematics and PCBs, simulation tools for circuit design.... I don't expect them to be available on a mac, because I can understand from the software company's point of view there would be little value for them in providing it.

    The other point is, that the majority of our end users are not interested in playing with the programming... most of them would either be too busy, or not technically minded enough. You are clearly one of the exceptions.. which is why you're hanging out here :) You may disagree with me (and our product management) on this... that's OK, but we'll have to agree to disagree, because for all the reasons darren outlined, it's just not going to change.

    Now... onto something useful... there are various ways to commission C-Bus stuff from a mac platform..

    1) Use Boot Camp. If you have an Intel mac, you can dual boot it and install Windows. Then you just run Toolkit/PICED etc in windows on your mac hardware. Not ideal, as you have to reboot, but the cheapest solution as you only have to pay for a Windows license.

    2) Use VMWare Fusion. This lets you run a Windows virtual machine inside OS X. You really want a dual core Intel machine, with a couple of gig of RAM to do this, but these days that's most machines. We actually do most of our development here inside virtual machines, and they run well. This is what I use at home for my managing my own C-Bus installation. This is the next most expensive option, as you have to buy VMWare (<$A$100 if you buy it online.. a bit more in the store from memory), as well as a Windows license. You don't need to reboot in to Windows.. you can swap back into OS X at any time.. but you do have to start up the VM when you want to do something.

    3) Run a dedicated Windows machine, and use Remote Desktop. Remote Desktop for mac is a free download, and lets you remotely access a Windows machine. This is something along the lines of Darpa's suggestion... run a dedicated Windows machine on your network, and access it remotely for commissioning your C-Bus gear. Since you're a big fan of the mac hardware... you could get yourself a mac mini (you can pick these up for about US$300-400 on ebay in the US), or you can get an as-good-as-new one with a full warranty on the "Refurbished Mac" page in the Apple Store, usually for about 15% off retail. Install Windows under boot camp (note that with Vista and W7... only the Ultimate and Business versions allow remote desktop connections.. whereas all versions of XP allow them). Obviously this is the most expensive option, but it's probably the quickest when you actually want to do something.

    Also...

    and

    Did you know he can use Toolkit to connect to your C-Bus network remotely through the Wiser as well?

    HTH.. If you want any assistance with any of the options above... feel free to ask and I'll do what I can.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Aug 31, 2009
    #27
  8. paddy2042

    Matty

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    In response to the post from Will a couple of days ago,

    The Colour C-Touch has a feature very similar to this. Here's how to use it:

    1. First get one of these http://www.iportmusic.com/products/in-wall with RS-232
    2. Create a Colour C-Touch project
    3. Select 'Start iPod server when program starts' from the 'options 2' tab in the 'project details wizard'.
    4. Place a button in the project somewhere that has a special function set to 'media player control'.
     
    Matty, Aug 31, 2009
    #28
  9. paddy2042

    Darren Senior Member

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    ROCK
    Rock Linux
    Rocks Cluster
    ROME
    Rome
    ROOT
    ROSLIMS
    rPath
    rPath Linux
    RSTS/E
    RSX-11
    RT Mach NTT
    RT-11
    RTEL
    RTEMS
    RTLinux
    rtmk
    RTMX
    RTOS-32
    RTOS-UH
    RTS-80
    RTX
    RTXDOS
    Rubix
    RxDOS
    S.Ha.R.K
    Sabayon
    Sabayon Linux
    Salvare
    SAM
    Samhain Linux
    Sanos
    Santa Fe
    SCI.Linux
    Scientific
    SCO Linux
    SCO OpenServer
    SCOPE
    ScorchOS
    ScottsNewOS
    Scout
    SCP
    SCP (System Control Program)
    ScrudgeWare
    Securepoint
    Self-R
    Sentry Firewall
    SeOS
    Sequent
    SEVMS VAX
    Shark
    SharpOS
    ShawnOS
    SIBO
    SimplyMEPIS
    Sinclair
    Sinix
    SINTRAN III
    Skolelinux
    SkyNet
    SkyOS
    Slackintosh
    Slackware
    Slamd64
    SLAMPP
    slax
    SLAX
    Slikware
    SLS
    SLYNUX
    SME Server
    SmoothWall
    sMultiTA
    SNAPPIX
    Sn?frix
    SOBS
    SoL
    Solar_OS
    Solaris
    Solbourne UNIX
    Sorcerer
    SOS
    SOT Linux
    Source Mage
    SP6800
    Spectra Linux
    SphinxOS
    Spice
    Spice/MT
    SPIN
    Spinix
    SPOX
    Spring
    Squeak
    SSP (System Support Program)
    Stampede
    STARCOS
    STAR-OS
    Starplex II OS
    StartCom
    STD
    Sting
    Stormix
    StressLinux
    STUX
    STX
    Subsump
    SuliX
    SUMO
    Sun Linux
    Sun Wah
    SunMOS
    SunOS
    SunriseOS
    SuperDOS
    SuSE
    SVM
    SVR
    Syllable
    Symbian OS
    SymbOS
    Symobi
    Symphony OS
    Symphony OS
    Synapse
    System V Release
    SystemRescue
    T2
    Tablix
    Tabos
    TABOS
    TA-Linux
    TalOS
    TAOS
    Taprobane
    TechLinux
    TENEX
    THE
    Thinstation
    Thix
    ThreadX
    ThrillOS
    TI-99 4A
    Tilix
    Tinfoil Hat Linux
    TinyOS
    TIS APL
    TNIX
    tomsrtbt
    Topologilinux
    TOPS-10
    TOPS-20
    Topsy
    Tornado
    Torsion
    TOS
    TPF (Transaction Processing Facility)
    TriangleOS
    Trinity
    Tripos
    Trixbox
    TRON
    TRS-DOS
    Tru64 UNIX
    Trustix
    Truva
    TSX-32
    TUD:OS
    TumiX
    TUNES
    TupiServer
    Tuquito
    TurboDOS
    Turbolinux
    Turkix
    UberOS
    Ubuntu
    UbuntuME
    uClinux
    UCSD-p
    UDOS
    Ufficio Zero
    UHU-Linux
    Ultima
    Ultrix
    UMDS
    UMN
    Underground
    Uni FLEX
    UNI/OS
    Unicos
    UNICOS/lc
    Unifix Linux
    Unisys U5000
    Unix System
    UnixWare
    Unununium
    uOS
    USIX
    UTS
    Ututo
    UXP/V
    V2 OS
    Vapour
    Vector
    VERSAdos
    Vidalinux
    VideoLinux
    Vine
    Visopsys
    Visual Network OS
    VLOS
    VM/ESA
    VM/VSE
    VME
    VMS
    VNLinux
    Voltalinux
    VRTX/8002
    VRTX/OS
    VSE
    VSOS
    VSTa
    VTOS
    VxWorks
    Wazobia
    WEGA
    White Box
    Whitix
    Wienux
    WIENUX
    WildMagnolia
    Windows 1.0
    Windows 2.0
    Windows 2000
    Windows 2003 Server
    Windows 3.0
    Windows 3.1
    Windows 3.11
    Windows 7
    Windows 95
    Windows 98
    Windows 98 SE
    Windows CE
    Windows ME
    Windows Mobile
    Windows NT
    Windows Server 2008
    Windows Vista
    Windows XP
    WinLinux 2001
    WIZRD
    Wolvix
    WOMP!
    X/OS
    Xandros
    XAOS
    Xarnoppix
    Xenix
    Xenoppix
    X-evian
    Xfld
    Ximian Desktop
    Xinu
    x-kernel
    xMach
    XOS
    Xteam
    XTS
    Xubuntu
    Yamit
    Yaxic
    Yellow Dog
    YES
    Yggdrasil Linux
    Yoctix
    Yoper
    z/OS
    Z9001-OS
    ZealOS
    Zenwalk
    Zeta
    Zeus Zilog
    zeVenOS
    ZMOS
    ZoneCD
    ZotOS
    ZRTS 8000
    z-VM

    If I have missed any that are important, please let me know ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2009
    Darren, Aug 31, 2009
    #29
  10. paddy2042

    ashleigh Moderator

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    I want it running on CICS. You will need to rewrite it in RPG for an IBM-370. 3270-screen support is mandatory, in page mode please. I'll settle for a TSO version running as an add-in to SPF, but it's a poor second choice.

    When you have done that one then the RSTS-E version should be next on the list. Everyone has a PDP-11 to run it on, they are common as muck. Actually, I have the later LSI-11, a bit more upmarket, and a lot smaller. Top stuff me!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2009
    ashleigh, Aug 31, 2009
    #30
  11. paddy2042

    Ashley

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    Wow, this is sounding better and better, although I would prefer the Vaxstation 3100 as I gave all my LSI-11 boards away when I moved to Adelaide. I am a bit concerned though Ashleigh that you opted for RSTS-E over RSX11-M
     
    Ashley, Aug 31, 2009
    #31
  12. paddy2042

    ashleigh Moderator

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    RSX-11M - its a bit like VAX/VMS's little brother. RSTS (RASTAS!!! Another lemming!!! Hmmm, maybe you had to be there) is a bi more raw. You really cop a better experience. It's like driving one of the old Minis like Mr Bean has. You are so close to the road you REALLY KNOW you are driving :)

    Hmm... Perhaps its time for the TRSDOS version as well :)
     
    ashleigh, Aug 31, 2009
    #32
  13. paddy2042

    wappinghigh

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    Thanks for all that..(and your understanding!)......just found out that he's been accessing toolkit through the wiser...:)

    Some simple initial requests...

    1/ A much simpler upgrading path would still be appreciated...

    ..hit "upgrade firmware " within Wiser. Reboot. All done. Toolkit/PICED/cgate whatever all upgraded at once. no multiple logging in via windows. I'm really over the "com port" issues of Windows...:rolleyes:

    2/ Also a simpler backup method...without turning on Windows....so that everything just get's backed up into time machine...the same way some Linux based routers have the one backup file. There are so many files floating around> PICED/cGate/toolkit....I get lost which ones are important....can't everything just be backed up into the one file?..Lets call it something like "My cbus project file.cbus" or something like that....or is this asking too much?...Regards..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2009
    wappinghigh, Sep 7, 2009
    #33
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