I'm all at Sea with my Bus

Hi
I'm a newbie here just trying to understand what C-Bus can do and how a technically minded, but untrained person can force a builder to come to the party.
I live in a multi storey 2 tower residential apartment complex with nearly 300 apartments. The complex also includes a shopping precinct, restaurants, commercial offices and common areas. It is nearly 2 years old.
All lighting systems in the common areas are controlled by individual NON-NETWORKED Cbus modules! (What an under-utilization of C-Bus capacity!)
Lighting failures have dogged the complex since its inception. The Owners Corporation has spent over $6,000 in globe replacements alone.
We have lights on during daylight hours which should be only on during darkness and we have other lights which go off during the night.
To add to our woes, the installing electricians have not annotated the C-Bus circuits correctly in some cases and in other cases have used terminology for light locations which is confusing.
Delving into the system I find that the C-Bus modules regularly drop out individual circuits, which can be re-instated by simply pushing the green LED button for the relevant circuit on the C-Bus module.
We don't seem to be able to get the Builder's electrical contractor back to reprogram the C-Bus timers and yet, reading this website, it appears that it must be done from a computer loaded with the relevant software.

Can any forum readers advise if they have witnessed continual dropouts on C-Bus modules due to voltage spikes (downwards) in the mains supply to the modules or for any other reason?

What do readers recommend we do in terms of getting the system correctly adjusted?

We have been quoted a sum of about $10k to place a master control module in the Building Manager's office so that he can see which modules are out and can also adjust lighting "on" times, eg for change in daylight saving etc.
Would this be a wireless system and would it penetrate solid tilt up concrete walls behind which some of the Cbus modules are located?

 

This is a relatively simple problem. The main issue is that the same problem is repeated many times over.

The resolution to issues such as normal function are outlined by these guidelines.
- Network burden (a resistor on the network)
- Clock (the time pulse in the network)
- Polarity (physical inspection of the cabling).

All of the networks can be joined together provided you abide by the networking limits. Therefore, you would most likely end up with network bridges. These extend the ability of CBUS to operate very large installations.

If there are no physical mistakes with cabling (as can happen) then I recommend that your first step is to draw the system precisely. This would cost about $1500 at $100 per hour or capped to that limit by a considerate installer.

The next issue is this so called console. The cost of a console is the cost of a computer and the software is mostly free. If you want super-deluxe mind-controlled customisation then you pay for that. If you just want control, it's generally free.

From the sound of it, you have been denied common sense. There is nothing inherently wrong with CBUS other than the CHC error which happens very often in most installation I have looked at.

CHC stands for Cheque Has Cleared. It generally causes 90% of the problems I have dealt with. You need a PATE to clear the CHC error (according to the list of objectives and goals you will draft after you get a drawing). PATE stands for Pay At The End.

10K for a console is like paying $30 for a litre of petrol.

Clipsal has drafted a beautiful document on how to handle voltage issues. It is so simple even a schoolkid could understand it. You install surge protection, over voltage protection and line filtering in that order and the line becomes noise free and wonderful. The spikes are most likely caused by someone using a very large motor on a shop equipment such as a fridge or oven or tool and when it transitions from on to off and vice-versa it pulses the power lines with annoying noise that may confuse electronics. It is easy to overcome in Australia.

If you have not found anyone to help you out by June / July I would gladly help you out with tips on how to handle this.

Unless the building manager is prepared to do the course, he is not qualified to handle changes. You are better off signing an annual contract for support for one year and sms your changes as you need them. This can all be done remotely.

 

Hello Engineer1946
In my experience CBus is a very robust sytem when installed and programmed correctly.
If you have the 5500PACA doing the lighting schedules then it already has a built in 24hr power backup for it's clock with the option of external batteries for longer periods.
It also has the ability to have sunrise and sunset times calculated based on location and daylight savings changes preprogrammed plus a whole lot more.
Each PACA device must be progammed and times set via its USB port.
That may sound less than ideal but it positively shines compared to some timers I maintain for commercial lighting.

The first place to start looking for help would be the list of approved installers in your area or contact your local Clipsal office.
http://www3.clipsal.com/cis/portal/index.php?s=installer

Have a clear idea which problems or features you would like to address then call them to see what they suggest.

 

Thanks..but

Guys
Thanks for your quick advice. Yes I do believe we need filtering and spike protection on our supply, but further up the line perhaps, to overcome excessive light failures. Yes we do have HVAC and refrigeration systems in the complex with perhaps some DOL start motors which may be causing voltage spikes. We also have a light industrial area nearby.
Meanwhile we have at least a dozen C-bus modules, generally located on or next to electrical sub boards hidden away in the bowels of the complex. To hardwire them all into a network as a retrofit would probably be pretty expensive, considering the physical remoteness of each module.
Hence my question about wireless remote control.
At the very least we need to get an approved contractor to re-program each module. Unfortunately that may be the original installers who no doubt will need to be "coerced" to come back and fix their bad workmanship.
Am I right in asserting that if no-one has had a computer near the modules since installation that the malfunctions rest with the installing contractor?

 

Installers sometimes remove the computer interface so that there is no easy entry for someone else.

All that means is that the PLAIN ENGLISH overlay has been removed and resides on the main laptop. This overlay is just a nice label on the existing codes within the system. Instead of calling up 030 for 10 seconds. You can prefer to name it Entry Light. But the actual codes are in the building itself.

It would take about 10 minutes per load to determine the function of a channel in CBUS. Then it can be drawn out and labelled on paper. Once you have a spec sheet of these functions, you download the free software and make your own overlay. There is no magic to it whatsoever. All the hard work is making sure you know what you have.

In order to join the two buildings you need to have some justification for wanting total integration on that scale. I would personally settle for having each tower finished first. Then if you still felt unhappy dig a trench and lay down some serious cabling channels. Since everything is getting the NBN sooner or later, your gardens might be dug up for fibre optic anyway. Besides, if the buildings are so designed then how exactly do you cope with the intercoms ? It may be possible to sneak a new cable through the common intercom ducting. Or did they stuff up the intercoms too ?

sounds like FAMND ... far as my nose design - zero planning. Fear not ... I have seen 3 storey homes operated as 3 different networks.

Since most electrical boards in towers are below the outdoor drainage level, any attempts made to sink a pipe below the soil often introduce a leak into the building. What you need is a pipe that rises above the soil when it reaches the building. Then crosses the wall and then goes down again. This is what telstra does with phone lines but they do it so neatly that you almost never notice it. Most of the time the pipes are covered by shrubs.

 

I C-Bus at the end of the tunnel

Thanks
Our Building Manager advises that he has already had the system mapped by a guy who turns out to be a Clipsal C-Bus authorised installer, so we are part way there.
I've asked for him to re program the on-off settings for the lights controlled by each module. I've also asked for his opinion on the noise filtering. Apparently the original installer is no longer contactable. They were sub-contracted by the project electricians, a well known Melbourne firm (not Hastie)

 

Yes .... CHC error - one of the most common errors that ruin CBUS.

 

C-bus now in the light

CHC !!!
Contractor Has Collapsed
Contractor Has Cheque
Cold Hearted Contractor
Cheque Has Cleared
'Cos He Could
Caught Holding (the) Cubicle

All of the Above!!!???

Engineer1946