How old is too old.

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by Charlie Crackle, Sep 4, 2010.

  1. Charlie Crackle

    Charlie Crackle

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    I just bought 2 x 5002RL20 via distribution.

    They are different colours and have different terminal blocks.

    After looking some more

    One is manufactured 28/8/2002 the other is 11 May 2009 (one came in a blue box the other in a white)


    Looks like 1 is very old stock. this one has the old back small terminals
    The relay driver side the holes are lined up with the terminals but on the relay side the terminals seem a little high. (see picture attached)
    The other problem is I hate these old terminals and very hard to get 4mm cable in these as this is a 20A circuit.

    1) I assume this still comes with full warrany.
    2) I know this is just a relay but 8 years old stock seem too old to be selling.

    Can I return to distribution to get a newer model ? with the better terminals or do I have to do this via clipsal.

    Charles
     

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    Charlie Crackle, Sep 4, 2010
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  2. Charlie Crackle

    znelbok

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    Old stock would not be a problem if we could do firmware upgrade [hint hint] - that is assuming that there is no difference physically as well - which in your case there is an issue.

    But with the fact that we can't do a firmware upgrade, old stock is a real problem as new features are introduced.

    I would hope that Clipsal at least will take it back for a new verison.

    Mick
     
    znelbok, Sep 5, 2010
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  3. Charlie Crackle

    Ashley W

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    You would feel mightly peeved to buy a product only to find it has old firmware or features and cannot be upgraded. If you buy new you expect the latest 'model' as it were or to be informed that it is old stock and be given the choice.

    In fact I purchased a PIR from an online UK retailer the other week that was old stock, if I recall it was from 2006. Smartly enough the website made it clear that it was old stock and it was priced accordingly.
     
    Ashley W, Sep 6, 2010
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  4. Charlie Crackle

    ashleigh Moderator

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    You really should be complaining to the distributor.
     
    ashleigh, Sep 6, 2010
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  5. Charlie Crackle

    Charlie Crackle

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    Well I did and they showed me their paper work that they both came direct from clipsal and was not their old stock.

    Clipsal must have some very old stock!

    I have returned for a new one. just hope If I order another one I dont get the 2002 model back again !!!

    Charles
     
    Charlie Crackle, Sep 9, 2010
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  6. Charlie Crackle

    Charlie Crackle

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    Well I did and they showed me their paper work that they both came direct from clipsal and was not their old stock.

    Clipsal must have some very old stock!

    I have returned for a new one. Just hope if I order another one I dont get the 2002 model back again !!!

    Charles
     
    Charlie Crackle, Sep 9, 2010
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  7. Charlie Crackle

    Htnut

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    I had the exact problem with a CBUS wireless switch a few months ago. It had a manufacture date of 2006. It also had no label indicating the firmware version.

    As I was going to install it in a remote location I spoke to my distributor who had just received the unit from Clipsal. He immediately contacted Clipsal. After several phone calls back and forward, I spoke directly to the Clipsal rep who was totally unconcerned and uncaring. He just said it would work and made no effort to replace it.

    The story ended well as the unit had v1.09 software and worked OK even though it should have had the latest firmware V1.11

    I still think that this is totally unacceptable and if there is old stock in the warehouse it should be updated to the latest firmware and correcly labled before being shipped
     
    Htnut, Sep 10, 2010
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  8. Charlie Crackle

    Conformist

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    I agree... this is totally unacceptable.

    The age of product and the response of the Rep.

    I'll look into it
     
    Conformist, Sep 10, 2010
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  9. Charlie Crackle

    KevinH

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    I too have similar issues and as installed base grows it will just get more prevalent.

    AIUI firmware is not updateable on some of the product range even by return to Clipsal. This leads to many behavioural issues in networks as you update them and no doubt much constenation for the Toolkit developers too. I don't believe firmware feature changes are publicly documented either.

    So my big feature request for the hardware dev team is please make the firmware easily updateable , assuming hardware version compatibility.

    K
     
    KevinH, Sep 10, 2010
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  10. Charlie Crackle

    Don

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    K,

    Firmware can be updated on all complex units such as C-Touch and PAC.

    Updating firmware in other units is not always possible.

    Small changes to firmware behaviour could be achieved in early units (over the C-Bus network) to fix bugs / add features, but the changes were limited, and it became difficult to manage different 'fixed' versions in the field, so this is now discouraged.

    Version changes to firmware require a full re-write of all application code, so are only possible in flash-based units (all wired C-Bus production prior to 2004 and much production up to 2009 was ROM or One-Time Programmable parts, so early units can never be updated). Many version changes in unit firmware are made to accommodate changes in unit hardware, so new firmware is not compatible with old hardware.

    It may be possible that a factory update may some day be offered, but this will probably have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis and is likely to incur a cost. DIN mounted dimmers and relays in particular, have glued enclosures and a 'firmware update' really means a 'rebuild'.

    Updating firmware over the bus would be a very slow process (C-Bus data rates allow approximately 100 bytes of data to be written and verified per second at best, assuming no other communication on the bus). There are also numerous logistical issues to deal with if firmware updating over the bus was to be offered, and customer firmware updates may void any warranty the unit may have.

    I would never consider updating the firmware of a wireless unit via RF link due to the limited reliability of such a link (what if a nearby transmitter swamped the signal in the middle of an update?), and the large amount of data required.

    It's not an easy ask, and you can't compare firmware updates in C-Bus units with the ease at which a DVD player with an >22 megabyte per second link to the CPU of a PC can be 're-flashed'.

    It's not completely ruled out for the future, but not possible for simple units now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2010
    Don, Sep 11, 2010
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  11. Charlie Crackle

    ashleigh Moderator

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    I'd also note that the post started with old hardware being received.

    And no amount of firmware update is going to change the manufacture date, or shift those terminals back to be lined up with the holes in the enclosure.
     
    ashleigh, Sep 11, 2010
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  12. Charlie Crackle

    Ashley W

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    True which gets back to his question of how old is too old? Ie when should Clipsal and their suppliers stop selling old stock?

    As I said above I like what one supplier in the UK has done, which is offer old stock as old stock, so at least the buyer knows what they are getting. Maybe the same should be done in Aus too.
     
    Ashley W, Sep 11, 2010
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  13. Charlie Crackle

    davesydney84

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    Re:

    Thanks for putting up all this info everyone, I have had similar problems in the Clipsal range and this has really helped me out. great forum! :D




    ----------


    Dave G.
    Data Cabling Services
     
    davesydney84, Sep 12, 2010
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  14. Charlie Crackle

    Newman

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    One final point is that the 5002RL20 does not contain a microprocessor, so the issue that started this thread is purely related to the mechanical alignment of the terminal blocks and the age of the product.
     
    Newman, Sep 14, 2010
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  15. Charlie Crackle

    Charlie Crackle

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    Exactly. It is only a relay. no firmware. any way clipsal has swapped the unit so everyone is happy. I was just supprised that clipsal would have stock that old. Maybe it was missed shelved, and one day it was found and put back into stock. Or clipsal made alot and do not sell many.

    Sorry to start the firmware debate again.

    After reading the warranty statement. Its says 2 years from installation. (not purchase date) how do you prove the installaton date ?
    from the end users point of view I assume the installation invoice.
    how about from the installers point of view. If they have sitting at office for a year waiting for building to be lockup does that year count I assume not ?

    Charles
     
    Charlie Crackle, Sep 14, 2010
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  16. Charlie Crackle

    Ross

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    Dear conformist,
    Did you have any outcome in looking into this situation?
    I just received 2 wireless switches.

    1 dated 11th 2004
    1 dated Jan 2007

    The 2007 I could live with, but the 2004 is just wrong.

    You have my number :)
     
    Ross, Jul 5, 2011
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  17. Charlie Crackle

    l60mcm

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    I just received 6 L5512RVF relays v2.7.00 dated 27 April 2011 I have only powered one of these so far but don?t think there should be an issue.
    6 L5508D1A dimmers v1.6.00 dated 5 Nov 2009 I have only powered one of these but does anyone know is this the latest version
    8 5753L Pirs, 2 of which are dated 21 Feb 2011 and 6 are dated 16 April 2011 I have not powered these up to check the firmware but I assume they should be ok

    Can anyone help with any of the above?

    Thanks
     
    l60mcm, Aug 25, 2011
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  18. Charlie Crackle

    Newman

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    Everything you have there is fine. There is a 2.7.00 version of the dimmers available as well, but that's more a hardware change than anything. You won't see any functional or feature differences between 1.6.00 and 2.7.00.
     
    Newman, Aug 26, 2011
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