How is possible to have more than 1 software burden on multiple output units?

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by ltlbigchief, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Ok guys,

    This project has a mix of 11 dimmers/relays (10 of which are powered units), there are 20 switches, a PIR and 2 PC interfaces (for 3rd party controllers, one of which has a H/W burden in it).

    Where these people live, they experience a LOT of power fluctuations and power loss.

    What is happening is that when they lose power and then regain power, some of the dimmer's and relay's channels are turning on, when they weren't on before. Programming on all the channels are set to return to previous state.

    The last time I visited their property I thought I'll just read the devices from the network to see if the programming is all good. It was, as I had programmed, after checking each unit I clicked on OK, so it downloaded back to the unit. I noticed on 3rd unit I checked that Toolkit was applying a network burden change??? This was on a unit that wasn't addressed at 1? So I thought I'd better keep checking the other units. Anyway, out of the 11 output units, 5 of them must have had a network burden on them somehow, because on clicking OK to download back to the network I received the previous message about changing the burden?

    Ok, this was good I thought, because on powering down the house (to simulate a loss of power), all devices responded as they should have been before, that is nothing turned on that wasn't on before?

    A couple of weeks have passed since that visit, and the client is complaining that it is happening again?

    I've spoken to tech support 3 times now, and have tried / checked all their suggestions except for the 3rd time (because haven't been back to site yet).

    I was thinking that their power problems are changing the programming in the output units. And after talking to Clipsal (3rd time), they did say it's possible, but it would more than likely wipe all of the programming in the problem units, not just change the burden.

    I already know that it's not possible via Toolkit to put more than 1 burden on, no matter how you try to do it.

    On the 3rd contact with Clipsal, the lady suggested that it was the 3rd party devices? But I'm pretty familiar with the CBus protocol, and unless it's in CBus's unreleased docs, you can't change the network burden via RS232 (why would you want to anyway)?

    Another thing to note, is on the last visit and finding the extra burdens, the network scanned in no problems, not like when you have a network issue?

    Has anyone had any similar problems?:confused:
    If not, does anyone have any idea what is happening? Especially when I get to go back to site, what am I going to do if I find the same issue?

    Helppppp????

    Regards,
    Darren
    :confused::confused::confused::confused:
     
    ltlbigchief, Jan 7, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. ltlbigchief

    filpee

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Western Australia
    I have had devices 'magically' change unit address and other devices revert to the lighting application (when they were programmed for a different application) in the past.

    I have gone through and disabled 'Learn Enabled' for every single device and have not had that problem since. Either the problem has settled down or that change fixed it.
     
    filpee, Jan 7, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. ltlbigchief

    ashleigh Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    you wrote:

    "I already know that it's not possible via Toolkit to put more than 1 burden on, no matter how you try to do it."

    Sorry - thats not true. TK does not do that level of checking, much though we'd like it to.

    EVERY case we know of where "things mysteriously change" has been found, eventually, to be a case of finger trouble. People go messing about pushing buttons, put the network into Learn, then rush around in a flap trying to figure out what next and make a bad situation even worse.

    In this case, power outages *should not* cause any troubles. A vast amount of effort goes into making the firmware robust to power outages. However, one can never say never. Sometimes weird crap happens during brownouts in particular (not quite up and not quite down). Suggest turn the mains off and back on again and see if it recovers, that wont make the customer happy but it will TELL us something.
     
    ashleigh, Jan 7, 2010
    #3
  4. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Thanks filpee, that gives me a new option to try once on site.

    Thanks also to Ashleigh, that's why I thought I'd ask the real CBus pros for an answer, I know they can only go so far, and they try their hardest to help, always! So your suggesting the same as filpee's reply, which I'll try once back on site.

    With regards to the turning off their power, I have already done this several times. This is what happened; on attending their premises the last time, before connecting to CBus or changing anything ...... we switched off all power to their house. Some of the Relays / Dimmers (the ones that had the extra burdens applied), when they power up all the channels on that particular unit turned on then off except for the channels that were staying on(which weren't on before?)). Tried this about 6 times with the same result. So I thought I'd better check the programming for power outage, it was set as I'd thought, that is to return to previous state. This is when I just clicked ok (which downloaded it back to the network) and noticed the applying burden change message? So I checked all the output units and found that 5 of the 11, Toolkit was fixing a burden. After fixing them all, we tried turning off the power again, I think 5 times or so. All the outputs units behaved as I would've expected their programing told them to, ie: no channels turning on that weren't on before and as well the units that started up before, turning all the channels on then off (except for the channels before that were coming on when they shouldn't have) didn't do that. They just powered up like normal.

    After that, we thought we had fixed the issue. But because they've complained again, the only thing I could think of was maybe the power fluctuations are altering the programming in the units????

    Hope this helps some more? Thanks for your reply!
     
    ltlbigchief, Jan 7, 2010
    #4
  5. ltlbigchief

    znelbok

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    13
    Years ago there was talk of this kind of thing.

    The recommendation back them was to turn off all burdens and use the hardware burden.

    Not that that will help you with burdens coming back on. I too seem to remember having trouble with burdens magically turning on in a network. I have since turned them all off and used the hardware with no issues.

    Do a search through this forum, and you may get a few comments that will shed some light.

    Mick
     
    znelbok, Jan 7, 2010
    #5
  6. ltlbigchief

    Don

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    429
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Townsville, Australia
    As long as the output units each have unique unit addresses, there can only be one burden on in a given network, and that burden will be on in THE unit at address 01. The only way to have multiple burdens enabled is if the burdens are in PC Interface units or units based on the PC interface firmware (Bridge units, or C-Touch units, Thermostats, PAC, GIM or Dali Gateway, etc.)

    Learn mode only ever affects burdens in output units, so disabling Learn may not solve your problem if it involves one of the PC Interface based units.

    Note that as far as Toolkit is concerned, Burden may be 'enabled' in an output unit (unit at an address other than 01), but the actual burden can not be active unless the unit is actually at address 01.
     
    Don, Jan 8, 2010
    #6
  7. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Hmmm, ok then.......

    What about this scenario then? I have done a couple of hundred different Cbus projects, and just thinking about how the problem Dimmer or Relays reacted when the power was turned back on, on this project (that is all of it's channels lighting up then mostly off). I can remember maybe 2 to 3 other projects that had units that did this. Could this be the source of my problem? What causes them to do that?

    Normally once the power is back on, the output units just start up, connecting to each via CBus network etc.

    Any thoughts on this guys? The only reason I think it was the extra burdens causing the problem, is that once toolkit fixed them the Dimmers and relays behaved, could it be something else?

    Thanks
    Darren
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2010
    ltlbigchief, Jan 8, 2010
    #7
  8. ltlbigchief

    Colin Smith

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    This thought just occurred to me prompted by the comment from Don. Could it be that your unit at address 01
    A) Does not have its burden tuned On.
    B) Does not have burden.
    C) Has a faulty burden
    And Toolkit is attempting to turn on a burden and enabling other units? Just a thought.

    Colin Smith
     
    Colin Smith, Jan 8, 2010
    #8
  9. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Pretty sure it has no software burden set on it, as I have a hardware burden in one of the PC interfaces........

    But I'll double check that too, when I get back to the site.

    Thanks Colin!
     
    ltlbigchief, Jan 8, 2010
    #9
  10. ltlbigchief

    Lucky555

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    In reading this thread I have a theory which is also a question. What about manual control of the output unit channels via the unit override buttons - now the unit is in manual override condition. After having a play with manual you / client goes back to normal control with C-Bus network commands overriding the manual condition, now here is the theory / question bit - what if the cycling of the power resets the manual override state then the output units might be restoring to the state they were at before they were put into manual override. Its a bit of a long shot, all depends on how the firmware works re knock down of manual override.

    Even if the above suggestion turns out to be a load of dingo's kidneys, I would always recommend that you always always always disable learn mode in all your output units. If your client is aware of the manual override capability and uses it there is a very high chance of them ending up in learn mode and the whole lot can unravel from there.

    The other suggestion which has been mentioned many times is to use a plug in burden. When presented with communications problems down the track it is a very big (and relevant) question which can be answered easily and quickly answered because you can see it, you can bite it and off you go from there...;)
     
    Lucky555, Jan 9, 2010
    #10
  11. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Thanks Lucky555 for your reply.

    Interesting theory about what the units do if they been put into manual overide and then lose power, I'll have to test this too.

    I've never actually disabled the learn mode, but from what some of you guys have said, I think it would be a good idea to start doing this.

    Regards,
    Darren
     
    ltlbigchief, Jan 11, 2010
    #11
  12. ltlbigchief

    ltlbigchief

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    New Theory as to what might be happening???

    I have not been able to go back to site as of yet to try or test any of your ideas.

    Today, I was thinking about it again ..... in the past there was a relay unit that had issues. When it was connected into the CBus network, it would knock out the CBus network. The unit was replaced, and all seemed good.

    I remembered that the output units surrounding (connected via CBus network), are the ones that have the problems....

    Is it possible that what ever fault this previous unit had, has damaged the others units connected to it? Which is causing my issue now?

    Has anyone had a situation like this?

    Thanks again.

    Really appreciate your input!!!

    Regards,
    Darren.
     
    ltlbigchief, Jan 27, 2010
    #12
  13. ltlbigchief

    ashleigh Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
     
    ashleigh, Jan 27, 2010
    #13
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.