Happy snaps!

Couple of happy snaps of the relay and dimmer panels to go in our new house. Think I have way too much time on my hands!

The panels are temperaliy wired to allow me to run them up for a test bed prior to installation. Still need to do the penetrations for the cable entry, won't do those until the cable location and sizes are known.

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

What is that special Modification to get the extra dimmer in the bottom !!

 

Nothing too special. A bit of DIN rail, nuts and bolts and some wire! Oh and a bit of time. This dimmer is covered when the lid goes on which I don't see as an issue. Just didn't have any more space for another housing. All snug but no angle grinder or sledge hammer required.

I wanted to have the fused switches on each channel and needed these to be accessable for the load fit off so dimmer 4 needed burying. I believe Clipsal have a 60 (5 X 12) module housing which would have been perfect for my application but were not availalbe at the time.

Fleetz

 

looks neat now - wait 'til the cables go in. I assume that you are running SDI's back to the boards and not home running every cable.

If you are home running all loads then where is your protected neutral. This is the problem I have with this board at the moment. I need four protected neutral bars which costs more again over the cost of the board. (You cant squeeze 12+ neutrals into the bottom of the RCD for a relay)

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

Yep that's why I took some photos before the sparky fits them off!

Had planned on home running the neutrals back and using the local N bar. Realise that the housing is going to be chockers but what I have arranged is the builder is providing a void behind where the housings are to allow for the mother load of cables (pardon the pun) to be presented to the appropriate locations to the rear or the housings.

A lot of penetrations and 50mm glands for cable protection into the housings.

There a few ways to do it I know. Be interested in why you do your installs with seperate protected N bar way? Is the cost of home running all cables back to the housing more expensive than having your protected neutral bars external and just running the load to the can. I have though about this a bit and have thought the home run might be the lesser of two evils. I value your thoughts on the fors and against.

Regards,

Fleetz

 

I have two 50mm and one 32mm. The 32mm is on the left for the c-bus cable and the two 50mm are on the right for tps. I flush mount my cabinets and hence have cables entering from the top/side and not the back.

I also turn my boards upside down to have more cable room at the top for the two 50mm entries when home running.

I have also used cable duct inside the board to help tidy it up as well.

I use a separate RCD for each output unit. So in my board I have four feeds (one for each unit). As you know you cant mix protected neutrals (RCD's will trip) and hence I need four separate neutral bars. Ba cause I home run the light cables to the board I found it easier (and hence safer) to have the neutrals in the board with the earth and the active. Needing four means I need to remove the two supplied and replace them. moving the neutrals out of the cabinet would save room, so would moving the earths out and just leaving the active.

I have two 50mm holes in the top of mine and that allows everything to come in - a bit tight though when you use 8 ch dimmers and 12ch relays. I brought the cables in for the 12ch relay in with the cables for the 4 ch dimmer (through one hole) and then the two 8 ch dimmers through the other. Gives a good balance of 16 cables per entry (plus two for powering the output units).

There are two ways to install (that I know of). Home run all cables is a more expensive option (more cable required), but has a lot more flexibility. Installing in the conventional manner by looping the neutral from light to light (for lights on the same output unit) is cheaper. This has only the switch wire being home run to the can. This is not as flexible for future changes but ends up with a much cleaner looking board and you do not get the neutral issue as there is only one or two neutrals which are connected to the RCD.

 

Hi Mick,

Thanks very much for the feedback. It certainly makes sense to go down the RCD per C-Bus output device and will be the way I will go. I have reviewed how I was going to do it and you way DOES make more sense!

I will fit 4 seperate protected neutrals in the dimmer housing and 3 in the relay one and run a seperate cct for each output unit back to a 10A and 16A RCD respectively to the switchboard which is about 15 metres from where the C-Bus gear is going.

There are a few ways of going on replacing the 2 neutral bars over to the 4 (dimmers) and 3 (relay) in the 4C48FD. I was thinking of using 4 x BPM90/6 neutral bars on the BF165F mounts in the dimmer housing and 3 X BPM90/12 neutral bars in the relay housing. They fit within the 500mm existing space allowed in the 4C48FD housings.

These neutral bars are 90A instead of the 165A supplied but I see no issue here. Each of the these neutral bars has 6 and 12 X 16mm2 2 screw tunnels so even allowing for the supply plus 8 channels on the dimmers things will be comfortable same with the relays. All of the home run cables to both dimmers and relays will be 1.5mm2+e as all relay loads are either fluoro lights, ceiling fans, garden lighting transformers and some 240V bunker lights that I don't want on dimmer channels. So the physical issue of fitting 8 X 1.5mm2 neutrals into effectively 5 tunnels won't be an issue. I have allowed a couple od spare channels per output unit anyway....good engineering I think.

That all said had you come up with a cleaner solution for your protected neutrals connectors in these housings???

I reckon I will go the flush mounting way too as either are still posibble. I take it that the 16 + supply the 16 home runs you are referring to are 1.5mm2+e cables in the 50mm service conduit???

I am also fitting a 970LCA (Lightening Current Arrestor) , 970DE (decoupling element) and a 970RMT ( Overvoltage Arrestor) in the main switchboard. Have you had any experience with these and RCD's??? I can't see an issue or at least there shouldn't be just thought I would ask in case you use any of these on your C-Bus installations.

BTW I the 970RMT has relay contacts for when the MOV cartridge poops itself which I will run back to the M1 to report it has failed.

Thanks for your feedback...it is valued!

Regards,

Fleetz

 

Hi Fleetz

Nice and tidy job there .....;-) Reminds me when i was an apprentice when panels were wired with single strand cables and were laced (no cable ties back then)...;-)

That would have taken quite a while ...????

Are those fused terminals at the top...???

My thoughts on the neutral bars was maybe use those small bars which have the black plastic covers...

Frank

 

Hi Frank,


Thanks for the comments. I thought I was the only person that had done an apprenticeship on the forum!!

Yes they are a fused terminals. They are from Rittal and are quite neat in that they allow you to break any circuit at the panel and if you have a fuse go pop a small neon lights to let you know which one!! Won't even have to get out the chair I can get the missus to change the fuse!! Only issue and it is not a biggy but you have to remove the cover plate on the 4C48CD housing which is only one screw to allow the fuse terminals to swing down and let you replace the fuse or break the circuit.....dam I better replace the fuse, all that exposed wiring and the missus wouldn't be good.....then again!!

Thanks for the suggestion I had thought of those however I believe the way I am heading will be a tidy solution and a liitle easier to fit off. Your suggestion certainly would work and a few dollars cheaper!

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

The neutral bars I am using are L14A, L10A. Its a bar on a black plastic mounting without the cover. Since the bards are metals the bars obviously have to have insulated mountings.

Yes. 16+4 (20 total) per 50mm entry. The four extra are c-bus power and load power for two output untis. I power the c-bus from a breaker (2A) so that when I isolate say a dimmer from the RCD I am not removing power from the C-Bus network.

I have not looked into that yet. That is my next step. I just hope I have enough room for it all. I have almost filled a 4c48fb with breakers. (I have 4 installed in the house with room for one more).

Why not, that is what it is there for. If I remember correctly you are a CQC user as well. I would do exactly the same.

Your Welcome - I enjoy helping with this stuff. You appear to have a very similar setup to me as well (CQC, C-Bus, M1)

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

Thanks again.

I also have had a quick look at the Hager for lightening/surge protection they have what appears to be a two module solution. Their "frontend" lighting arrestor is the SPN165R and bring up the rear is their surge overvoltage SPN208S . It is a little cheaper than the Clipsal and takes I think one module less space. They have relay monitoring on the 208S and a replaceable MOV module. (No disrespect to Clipsal from mentioning another brand and not making a recommendation!)

I probably go with Clipsal but not signed off yet, I have too many more pressing things that need tending too at the minute. I will let you know which way I go and why when I do.

Which is your preferred 10A and 16A RCD??????????

I have not jumped into CQC yet when my previous builder went belly up in April I was about to jump in and make a decision CQC/Homseer/MainLobby etc etc anyway thought I would sweat off until it get a bit closer. Lots happen in 12 months! So I am still sitting back and smelling the roses but need to revisit this after Christmas. I am interested in the HSTouch that Homseer announced at EHXin the US a month back. Will run on the two TS-07 I already have so they might be in the mix.

You happy with CQC?? I like how their product is supported by Dean....just spooks me a bit if he ever got hit by a bus!!

Yes really got into M1 and C-Bus looking forward finally to integrating the whole of house HA and AV thing. Off next week to FNQ to see the slab go down, the slab is going to look like a porcupine!

Thanks for the valuable feedback.

Regards,

Fleetz

 

Here are some follow up happy snaps of the final install.

Regards,

Fleetz