Greenstar - DALI vs DSI

Hi guys,

Has anyone had experience with gaining the maximum Greenstar points using DSI?

The Greenstar book V3 (page 167) states that you must have a "programmable lighting control system" it then goes on to say that a programmable lighting control system must have re-addressable fittings without the need to re-wire.

So I guess my question is - Do you have to use DALI to gain maximum Greenstar points?

 

From that statment you would have to use DALI because DSI (or any other types of fitting, that i know of) doesn't give you addressable fittings.
Intresting thou, i'm sure DALI product makers are happy and the people who said DALI will never be a player in the market are wrong

 

Pete,

Need to be very careful on the actual wording. Does it state re-addressable fittings or some other wording around re-addressable system / channels etc.

If it is specifically "fittings" then we are referring to DALI...

Ashleigh made a comment in onother thread, http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4711 about the cumulative result of many ballasts consuming power in the off state, this is a valid consideration. However, first point, this would be the same consideration for a DSI ballast. Second if we consider, in a commercial situation where the lights might be on 12 hours of the day, then daylight harvesting and or limiting the full dim level based on sufficient lux level (to BCA) then for a conservative estimate of dimming say 20% you are way infront of power consumed by the 0.5 to 1 watt in the off state.

I have four 36 watt fluoros in my office. I have a large window on one wall. There is so much light in my office I have twisted out 3 of the four fittings. I would have preferred to dimm the fittings if I could.

Also keep in mind power in watts and lumen output for a flouro are not linear...

 

Green Star

Ene-4 Lighting Zone criteria for V3 of Green Star states "To encourage and recognise lighting design practices that offer greater flexibility for light switching, making it easier to light only occupied areas". One point is awarded under the scheme if it can be demonstrated that an individually addressable lighting system is provided for 90% of the NLA. Green Star does not specifically mention or promate the use of any particular protocol. In terms of enery efficiency, the tenancy lighting is excluded from the energy calculation, only the core building energy use is considered under Green Star.

 

So going back to my post the key word above is "system" or is this still interpreted as individual fittings by virtue of the words "individually addressable" ???

It is not written very well or maybe I am just easily confused...

 

Green Star

You are right each light fitting needs to be individually addressable, and while the Green Star does not mention DALI specifically since it is a technology and brand independant program DALI would be the obvious solution.

 

It will all come down to wording, i think the intent is to be able to control or rearrange areas without the need to cable. Thus just using a channel would still requirer recabling.
The way i understand Green star is thats it's points based so you get one point for the lighting control,, one point for addressable fitings etc etc, you could still get the highest rating without using the addressable fittings, you would just have to make points else where, with building materials/design, HVAC and so on.

 

Great feedback guys.

When you are trying to achieve 6 Star Greenstar every point counts, making it up elsewhere is not as easy as it sounds...

In theory powering 60 DALI ballasts from a single CB and being able to address, control and dim individual fittings sounds great, however as discussed it would be poor power management to install DALI (or DSI) without using lighting control relay channels to turn the ballasts off when the fitting is dimmed to 0V.

The Greenstar manual states that the lighting control system must re-configurable without the need for re-wiring; however good practice would suggest that you would want to break-up an open planned area consisting of 60 fittings into a minimum of 3 groups of 20, with a seperate relay channel to power each group. Common sense would tell you that there is no need to power all 60 ballasts when the area is only occupied by 1 or 2 people.

Even if you had all 60 ballasts powered off the 1 relay channel you wouldn't want (potentially) 60 different light levels throughout the space either.

With all this in mind, I would suggest that the 'so called' advantages of individually addressable / controllable ballasts that DALI offers over DSI is now negligent.

If the ballasts didn't draw any power in the 'OFF' state, and there was no limitation to the number of ballasts you could connect to a DALI network, DALI would be the PERFECT solution!

So what are the real benefits that DALI has over DSI? And why do the people of the Greenstar council seem to suggest that DALI is the preferred control type?

 

But when do you stop trying to save power, do you install a single realy to turn off all the C-Bus units during the night bacause they are using power when nobody is on the floor too
You also need to take into account that control systems will need the DALI on at all times to use some of the other features that DALI offer, eg ballest/lamp fault reports which is usual done over night to minamize traffic on the network during work hours.

Again your only treating DALI as turn on/off/dim which is not the point of it, use DSI if thats all you want. The whole point of it is the reporting, control and flexibility you can have now and in the future if the building design ever changes.

I remember the same question being asked about lighting control (C-Bus) and a normal light switch - Can't people just turn the lights off
I guess the benfits is the overal control you can have with a DALI system. Being able the redesign the whole floor lighting structure with just a few clicks of a button.
I like the ability of being able to have a report to hand to the electrician saying these ballest/lamp, on these need fixing. No more having someone walk the floors each week/month checking the lighting. Or being able to check lamp life to know when the lamps need replacing, cause as you know with fluro they can be on but not really giving out light - which waste a lot more energy then a 0.5W per ballest.

Saying that i adgree that you could get the same amount of energy savings with DSI, but from my understand of Green Star (which is limited) it doesn't just look at the energy savings but looks at the total impact over a longer period. So how much copper you can save or how much you save when the building has a face lift in 5/10yrs if you install this system compared to that one.

 

Thanks ________. for your comments.

The point of my original post is I don't need DALI on this project, DSI will work just fine; DALI is only going to potentially add more unwanted issues. I'm just concerned that we have to install DALI to achieve the extra Greenstar point.

 

This old story of using a relay channel to drop the power to the DALI loop when all fittings are off - flys in the face of the DALI technology. Firstly, as pointed out in other posts, there is more to DALI than on/off/dim and grouping / regrouping fittings without rewiring. There is error reporting, tracking hours used, and the big one of taking light level measurements at commissioning and where possible limiting the maximum dim to a level that achieves the correct illumination without wasting power. Some smart gateways on offer can track hours used and allow the dim level to increase slightly over time to maintain illumination levels as the lamp becomes less efficient over time.

Back to the old series power relay story. The DALI protocol allows DALI fittings to be used without DALI comms, if you switch 240v power off then on to a DALI fitting it will strike and run at 100%. So for the scenario of a 60 fitting DALI loop - all fittings off, drop the power via a relay - sounds easy. However, a group of four fittings (of the 60) associated up with an office requires "lights on" you need the power back on obviously. Now you have the problem of all 60 starting to strike because you need 4 on. You now need a smart and very quick control system that can send a message to all bar the 4 required to turn back off. You will be wasting power whilst the other 54 are pre-warming and starting to strike plus you will be reducing the life of the fittings.

So the old 240v power realy in series might sound good on the surface but is not so clever when you think about it a little more...

 

Green Star Training

There are a couple of issues that need to be clarified so the argument of DALI vs DSI can be bought into context.

1) The objectives of the GBCA program is to promote sustainable development and the transition of the property industry towards sustainability by promoting green building programs, technologies and design practices

2) The energy efficiency and greenhouse emissions are only calculated for the core building. The GBCA does not use operational data as you would find with NABERS Energy program.

3) Tenancy lighting is excluded from the energy and greenhouse calculations.

4) Whereas the tenancy lighting is excluded from the energy and greenhouse calculations, the GBCA allocates points for those designs that employ High Frequency Ballasts and control Electric Light Levels in an effort to improve Indoor Environment Quality (IEQ) further points are allocated where the Lighting Power Density is designed to provide artificial lighting with minimal power consumption and Lighting Zones are designed for greater flexibility for light switching, making it easier to light only occupied areas in an effort to reduce Energy Consumption (Ene).

5) Any ballast solution (if that?s what you decide) should address those four criteria above simultaneously for maximum points.

6) The designer decides which of the 9 categories and 129 points that he will chase, lighting happens to be an easier category to satisfy, at least cost and generally addressed by most green buildings.

7) A building needs to be a Class 5 commercial building to qualify for the GBCA program, only 20% or so of all buildings meet these criteria. Building owners that build Green Star Buildings generally are prepared to pay more; in fact a 6 Star building will cost up to 15% more and a 5 Star up to 8% more than a conventionally designed building, i.e. Green Buildings have a long term tenant in mind from the onset (government, blue chip company types), who are willing to pay higher rents for an environmentally friendly building.

8) DALI is used in most projects because of the work done by those specifying it, DALI has a high level of acceptance by the consultant fraternity and it meets all the criteria above.

9) The GBCA was developed by the Property Council of Australia and is a marketing tool as much as it is a program for the development of sustainable buildings.

10) For those who are interested, the GBCA program is one day long, followed by an exam, if you wish to become a Green Star Accredited professional.

 

Good quality information Stace. I am a little worried about point 10 in your post though.

One day course and an exam to be called a "Green Star Accredited professional" how professional could someone be on such a complex subject after just one day

 

Green Star Accrediated Professional

A Green Star Accredited Professional is by definition one that has attended the Green Star course and passed the exam, obviously there are restrictions in what he can do and what advice he can offer. A project with a Green Star Accredited Professional on the design team gets one point (Man-1), most consultancy firms have one such person on staff, in fact there are over 3,900 accredited professionals in Australia today.

 

Thank you everyone for your insightful replies, as usual some great information from people in the industry.

Thanks again.


Peter

 

Green Star Accrediated Professional

All tough I live in Greece I am interested in the related literature. Where can I find it to download it?

 

Where to find information

More information on Green Building Council of Australia at www.gbca.org.au, the USA equivalent program is called LEEDS and the UK program is called BREEMA just Google these and tons of data will appear. Unfortunately, the GBCA manuals are not available from the website; you will need to purchase these. Kala Xristouyenna.

 

Thank you Stace. I didn't Knew that UK has its own program.

European Community is trying to built a similar policy like LEEDS (White Paper_RES_599-1997 and Green Paper_105-2006_European Strategy for Sustainable, Competitive and Secure Energy of European Community).

I would like to keep myself as more informed as possible since I like the subject.

Merry Christmas to all

Kala Christouyenna for the Greeks