Electric Roller Shutters

Hi all,

Whats the best way to control my Electric Roller Shutters.

I am assuming a Relay Module, with one "ch" for up and another for down.
or
is there a better way ??

My blinds are currently controlled via a (brace yourself, I'm gonna say a bad word) X10 blind controller. I am converting the control to C-bus, but C-bus dont have any dedicated part for controlling Blinds/Shutters etc...

Is anything being released for blind/curtain/shutter control soon ??

Viva le CIS...

 

Roller shutter control

Hi Richy,

For roller shutter control where you only need two positions (open or closed), the C-Bus changeover relay (L5504RVFC) works a dead set treat.
Very simple to cable and program, should get you out of trouble

 

Motor requirements

Hi there,

we are (one of) the manufacturers of the roller shutter motors. One thing that is most often forgotten when interfacing these types of motors, besides the mentioned interlocking, is a 0.5 seconds delay between the up and down direction.
I.e. What happens if a timer sends the shutters down and the user presses the up button? If the motors reverse immediately, without delay, a damaged motor is not a question of if, but when.

The following tread should be of interest to you, it goes quite into detail in this matter:
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97

Have especially a look at:
Post 29 and 31: (From "Guru", Clipsal Technical support Sydney)
and
Post 32: I posted there some additional information regarding this topic

I also did attach a manual for our motors. I am sure the manual for your shutter motors looks very similar (Becuase it does NOT show a switchover relay, but actually a switch with intermediate position, there is no such relay available. If there is such a beast out there (, in one relay!), let me know I am looking for that!)

 

New Relay Please

It seems to me that clipsal could make life a lot simpler for us poor installers if they were to design a new relay in which each channel had two on positions and an intermediate off position with a software programmable delay between the activation of the on outputs. The problem with the changeover relay is that one or other of the outputs is always on and to achieve up down control of a set of blinds it requires 2 channels to get the desired operation, now it doesnt take many blinds to burn some serious money and switchboard space. I have been working around this problem by using 12 ch relays , one channel for up and one for down, wired through standard type relays (non c-bus) to provide intelocking but the changover delay is still a worry. I'm yet to play with the new PICED software and I am led to beleive the logic engine and/or scene control will allow me to overcome this, but it is not every installation that includes a touch screen. Sorry to be long winded but this keeps popping up as a recurring problem, and after all control of blinds seems to impress the pants of my customers.

 

So here is my stupid question

I am getting close to building and want to lay the power cables for the curtains.

i spoke to a local mob who "specialise" in this area and got no real help. All I wanted to know is what cabling was required.

Basically I like tot look of the elero 2 way reg. Makes intergrating to C-bus easy The cable shown has 2 x brown/black, a blue and earth, which if I remember correctly the colours for a flexible cable.

So what cable is best to use.

Mick

 

Hi Mick
Basically I like tot look of the elero 2 way reg. Makes intergrating to C-bus easy The cable shown has 2 x brown/black, a blue and earth, which if I remember correctly the colours for a flexible cable.

So what cable is best to use.

assuming 2 x brown / black means it has a brown and black wire and not 2 browns and 2 blacks , you could use a twin + e plus a single active sdi cable..

HTH
Frank

 

Wiring requirements

Not such a stupid question:

First you need to find out what type of motor you have.
Tubular motors (which is the correct term) used for Roller shutters, Roller blinds, Venetian blinds, Awnings, Projector screens are usually 240 V motors. In some rare cases or small Venetian blinds, Shutters and blind you might stumble over DC motors. (See below in Curtain motors for more details for those)

Curtain motors come in all kind of versions, see below for more details



Tubular motor to controller wiring requirements (also see attachment)
Our elero tubular motors (and those of most manufacturers around, i.e Somfy, Becker, Simu, Jolly, etc) take 240 V and about 0.7 - 1.9 Ampere (startup 1.3 - 2 x more, also depending on size) and come with a 0.75 mm square core cable.

When wiring, keep in mind that the curtains/ blinds/ motors needs sometimes servicing/ cleaning and a plug beween Motor and lead to controller is highly recommended (In Europe this is common practise. We have available 4-pole plugs which are just 14mm square for internal or IP 54 rated plugs for external application)

From the Plug/ Junction box a 240 V 4-core (Color coded: 1x Brown (Life Up or Down), 1x Black (Life Down or Up), 1x Blue (Neutral) and 1x Yellow/ Green (Earth) , mostly 1.5mm square (per core) cable is used to run it to the location of the control box (which could be right next to the blind but also only back where the Circuit breakers/ C-bus system components sit)

If you have to run more than 1 motor in a group DO NOT connect the up and down (Black and Brown) wire in parallel, this will destroy the motors (There is a capacitor inside between up and down wire). There are group controllers or isolating relays available. Only very few motors have electronic insides which allow for parallel wiring.

If you are using a interface from elero:
Connect the 4-core wire to i.e. the 2-way REG unit (which is able to control 2 motors as a group)
Provide a 3-core power supply (240 V) to REG unit.
Link 2-way REG unit (low voltage inputs) to C-bus relay contacts (1 contact for up 1 contact for down.
Best suited is a shielded cable with 0.6 - 0.8mm diameter (Which will yield distances up to 250m without problem).
Cat 5 cable can be used, but maximum wiring lenght will be reduced.
Unshielded cable is not recommend, if it is used, use it only for very short distances.

On our controller you do not need to worry about interlocking on C-bus side. Both channels ON at the same time will simply issue a STOP command. (Which can be used as a feature STOP button)
To save C-bus relays you can even link unlimited numbers of 2-way REG via the low voltage inputs or via a included flat link cable that can easily link REG controllers that are located next to each other on the DIN rail.
Obviously the motors will always run together.
The REG unit has 2 Inputs. 1 Input could be used for C-bus integration and run i.e. 10 blinds always together, the other input could be used to run only 2 motors (or only connect 1 motor to the controller) via 2 ordinary push buttons (1x up, 1x down) hardwired to the controller.
This is a very interesting solution if i.e. the controller is located nearby the blind: you can use a standard switch instead of a C-bus switch. Since usually a C-bus switch nearby the window has very little use for anything else but the blinds.


If you connect the motors straight to the C-bus relays:
You will still need a 4-core wire (240 V) from Motor to Controller. For more details on connection to C-bus relay, please follow manual as per post 29 and 31 in this tread:
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97



For Curtain motors there are equally DC or AC around:
Both have quite different requirements.

A standard DC motor (We no longer manufactur them. I give here what is my experience. For final wiring check with your supplier/ manufacturer!) is usually just having 2 DC wires (12-24V) to a transformer box somewhere else.
Not all have an option to interface to C-bus. If they do, it usually is by low voltage switch wire (3-core: 1x common, 1 open, 1x close)

A AC Motor (i.e. Wohntex/ Bautex/ BTX and all their Chinese copies from Oslo, Shading systems, Windoware, etc) use the same cabling as a AC Tubular motor (Shutter and roller blind motor), which is a 4-core 240V wire (1x Brown and 1x Black for 240 Life switching (Open and Close), Blue (Neutral) and Earth.
These motors have the same requirements as tubular motors (Roller shutter, roller blind, Awning motors etc.)

A special case is the Silent Gliss curtain motor which is also a 240 V motor, which allows switching via 240 Volt (but not as expected!) or Low voltage.
240 Volt switching: 1x Life supply, 1x Neutral Supply, 1x Life/ Neutral (for open/ close, Neutral will run in one direction, life in the other) and 1x Earth (This setup screams for trouble if not done 100%. Not even Silent Gliss likes to control their motors that way)
Low Voltage switching: 240 V Power supply (1x Life, 1x Neutral and 1x Earth) + 3-core low voltage switch wire (By RJ11 plug, usually by 4-core flat phone cable)



Ups, now its gotten real long here, and still going.
Hope this helps someone out there


Descriptions to Attachments:
2-way connection.pdf
Connection example of 2-way REG unit showing most options. Please note: Usually only low voltage terminals 1,2 and 3 OR 4, 5 and 7 are used for C-bus integration.

2-way reg to 2-w motor controller.pdf
Showing of an example of controlling 3 motors using an isolating relais between 2 motors connected to the same output of the REG output


So now I am finished, and I am out of the office for today ;-)

 

Not so much different

Even in Europe where there are Special Blind controllers available for the major other Building systems like EIB, KNX, LON, MAG, etc usually a 8-channel light controller still becomes a 4 motor controller if it is used for motors.
So, Clipsal is not real different here.
But maybe they can use their link to Schneider a bit more and simply have a "Plug-In" for controlling motors with current relais and Software ;-)

 

Hi,
Depending on motor requirements and the possibility of load requiring seperate 3rd party relay, all my curtain and shutter controls are achieved by allowing a relay chan. for each direction, input with a Neo, Interlocking via software, (so no chance of powering up and down at same time) and using Global timing parameters to achieve delay in direction change.
Tie in the open and close switches with tick boxes under Blocks, then use Key Functions Tab to set the sequence of Off Key, Idle, Recall1, Start (for Open) Off Key, Idle, Recall2, Start (for Close). Setting recall percentages to 100 and 0, then 0 and 100 for opposite key. Input appropriate timer value, slightly exceeding time required to reach end (and limit switch).
Functions are then press/release to close fully, press/release opposite key to open fully, or - Hold key to reach desired position then release and press/release again to stop, or - press to fully close (or open) press/release again at any time to stop in early position. Anytime the sequence is interupted C-bus simply times out. The Off key setting at the beginning means the first function is Off, helping to avoid "dual messaging".
Attached pics may help explain.....hope this helps someone....
Cheers, Bullpit

(Not applicable to Every Motorised system but does a lot !)
Little Neo remote makes a real nice addition to above system too !!

 

Hi Bullpit,

yep, your solution seems to work as well.
But may I suggest using the switchover relays and also include electrical interlocking?
You never know when one of the relais might get stuck.
I am not sure in this setup, but it happens on other system/ setups: that there is too much traffic on the bus and relays might switch with a delay, not providing enough switchover delay for the attached motors.

C U

 

Hey i bet Elero has a controller thats solves all the problems,is going to save us money and is easier to install than any other option.

 

Wow,

Great response, obviously the blind/shutter topic causes pain for most, as it does me.

I like the Idea of Using a 12Ch Relay, (which is waht I opted for) One Ch Up / One Ch Down. Use the Login Engine to get around the delay prob.
But yes 12 Ch controls 6 Blinds, which SUX.

CIS is my hero and they will design a Blind/Shutter control module SOON!.

Meanwhile, back to the think tank.

Here is another solution, it SUX a little but is worth a shot.
1. Use a single channel for up and down.
2. Use a third party Relay for swapping the directions.
3. Use the logic engine to fix the delay issue.
Part that sux is, you would need a MAC style interface, i.e. one button.
Operation Procedure
-Hit Button - Blind goes in direction A
-Hit button - Blind Stops
-Hit Button - Blind goes in direction B

This would work yeah ???

 

Sequencing relay

Hi Richy,

there are relays out there that do exactly what you want:
All you need to do is pulse them with a 240V signal (only requires one channel on the C-bus relay per motor)
It goes trough its sequence of:
up - stop - down - stop - up - ...
This solves quite nicely the relay cost, delay and other issues.
There is not even the need to program the delay, since the relay can't switch that fast (or the user cannot press the buttons that fast after each other, since it is going through a stop cycle first)
You even can hook up any number of standard switches in parallel for operation.

Two things you have to keep in mind tough:
1:
You have no longer control of the direction: If you want to operate i.e. the blinds by timer there is no way knowing in which state the relay is.
2:
Lets say the blinds move up. The motor will stop with its integrated limit switch. So far no problem.
However, next time the customer wants the blinds down, he needs to press the button 2 times (1 press gives stop signal to relay, 2nd press executes down command).

Therefore I would recommend the controller realy only for within line of sight installations

 

Yes,

Its a cost effective solution, but one that really requires line of sight.

Therefore cant get funky and make it part of a Exit Scene, or have central Touchscreen control.

But good to see we numerous options.

Cheers,

Thanks for everyones input....

 

Here is a solution I came up with by using a touch screen & without having to use logic.

By using the "Selector Comonent" tool & simple scenes we can set up control that offers foolproof software interlocking, direction control, ability to stop blinds & also delays between direction changes. All without using the logic engine!

First set up a Trigger group: BLIND 1
Create 3 Action Slectors within this group with addresses as such:
CLOSE = 0
STOP = 1
OPEN = 2

We need 2 relay channels to operate blind, set up as such:
CH1 = BLIND 1 OPEN
CH2 = BLIND 2 CLOSE

Now to set up the delays so when changing motor direction the motor is protected from any overrun we set the Turn On values (in the relay unit advanced setup GUI) for these two channels to 20%.

We now create 3 scenes to control each function:

Each scene is triggered by it's respective trigger group eg:
Scene BLIND 1 CLOSE triggered by setting Application to "Trigger Control", Group Address to "BLIND 1" & Tag to "CLOSE"

Scene "BLIND 1 CLOSE"
Set CH1 BLIND 1 OPEN to 0%
Pulse CH2 BLIND 1 CLOSE to 100% for 10sec with a ramp rate of 4sec & return to 0%
(the ramp rate of 4 seconds combined with the relay channel turn on value of 20% will give us 800ms of delay from when the scene is triggered until the relay turns on - for longer delays just increase the turn on value ie: 50% = 2sec delay)

Scene "BLIND 1 STOP"
Set CH1 BLIND 1 OPEN to 0%
Set CH2 BLIND 1 CLOSE to 0%

Scene "BLIND 1 OPEN"
Set CH1 BLIND 1 CLOSE to 0%
Pulse CH1 BLIND 1 OPEN to 100% for 10sec with a ramp rate of 4sec & return to 0%
(also note the pulse length is set to the duration you require for a full run of the blinds)

OK - now the easy part!

In PICED or C-Touch use the "Selector Component" tool to add a selector button set to the Application "Trigger Control" & Group Address "BLIND 1".
Now add the three selector names (CLOSE, STOP & OPEN) with whatever indicators you fancy.

The beauty of using a selector button is that it is impossible to press 2 buttons at once - only 1 scene can ever be triggered at once. You could still use this technique with a Key Input unit but holding down two buttons at once (Kid Factor) "MAY" cause undesirable results but we have yet to have had this problem. The only drawback is the unit has to be set to the "Trigger Control" application.

You could also expand on the 3 main functions by adding more scenes with set pulse lengths to say "nudge" or open blinds 50% just by timing.

That's it! Try it - it works a treat.

 

Jay,

That sounds good.

Since you are doing it all with scenes, they can be initiated from any Neo, Saturn, Reflections or DLT unit without having to put the unit into the "trigger control" application... Just set up scenes with no groups in them, but using the same Trigger group and action selectors for each of the scenes in the unit triggering. Scene triggers are supported in the "trigger control" application automatically, and the unit can be used in any other application at the same time.

As for the kid factor, pressing 2 keys on a unit will still exhibit the mutually exclusive scene behaviour, but the scenes may be initiated very soon one after the other. It all depends on how the touchscreen reacts.

Don

 

Solution from Somfy

Let me introduce my small experience in that problem.
We just have finished project with many roller blinds with Somfy motors. Our client wanted separately open-close each blind, and open-close groups of blinds from C-Bus. We use two solutions for this purpose. We installed and tested both solutions in one project. All works fine.
First solution.
Somfy has wall switch for blinds named Centralis Uno IB. This switch should be installed near each blind. The switch has 4-wiring local bus for group operating. J dont remember how its wires named in Somfy documentation. In fact it is Low Voltade DC Power, ground, Up and Down. If you short DC to Up, blinds move up, if you short DC to Down, blinds move down, if you short DC to Up and Down in same time NOTHING happens.
We have connected two C-Bus relay channels to Up and Down wire, add we can open and close blinds group with only two C-Bus channel, and can open and close each blinds with wall switch separately.
Another advantade is that Centralis Uno IB is full electronic switch (no any clicking sounds), and you dont need to trace many Main power wires to C-Bus enclosure box.
Second solution.
Somfy has DIN mounted group controller named GS300N. It may control four blind motor. Using GS300N we can control four motors group with two C-Bus channel.
And we dont need any software interlocking protections. Both devices have built-in mechanism for resolve interlocking and delay problems. J dont believe in software protection. Only simple and fool proof solutions will work fine. And long
Hope it will be useful for anybody.
--------------------------------
Sergey,
Company Ascentis

 

Second solution.
Somfy has DIN mounted group controller named GS300N. It may control four blind motor. Using GS300N we can control four motors group with two C-Bus channel.
And we dont need any software interlocking protections. Both devices have built-in mechanism for resolve interlocking and delay problems. J dont believe in software protection. Only simple and fool proof solutions will work fine. And long
Hope it will be useful for anybody.
--------------------------------
Sergey,
Company Ascentis[/QUOTE]


Sergio

Thanks for the info

Where can i get my hands on one of these units (GS300N)???

 

To Davide

Unfortunatley, I live too far from Australia
Can you try in your local Somfy staff? http://www.somfy.com/au/index.cfm?page=/au/home/company_details&language=en-au