Down Loading Labels form CBus Network

My point one installer refused to supply me my project files for my installation, due to him stating it containing proprietary information, this for both the PICED and TOOLKIT database.

Now I want to change some label on my DLTs, so I have down load the project from the CBus network via the toolkit, and of course labels are not visible.

Is there any way of retrieving all the labels from the DLT units and groups in the network?

Or should I get Clipsal to give my installer a kick up the back side?

 

If you have a Colour C-Touch, you can retrieve the ToolKit project file (XML) from there. It contains all of the "tags" for the groups and the programming information for the units.

Otherwise, you will need to manually name (tag) all of the groups in ToolKit. When you open and edit the DLT in ToolKit, you can set the labels that you want there.

If all you want to do is to change the DLT labels, you should be able to do this in a few minutes, once you have created the ToolKit project and scanned your installation.

 

Name and shame them.

 

I should name and shame, below is the response I received when I requested the installer for the project files.

"Regarding your email to XXXX this morning, we do not release our source code for any project to any parties other than the manufacturer as all programming comes under XXXXXXXX intellectual property. We provide complete systems solutions, not the raw programming source files. Aside from the obvious developmental and copyright aspects of our code and graphics, the other reason for this is that we cannot offer warranty on systems that may have been modified by third parties and since releasing our source code would offer no protection from this to clients or our ourselves; we do not release this to anybody other than Clipsal Australia Pty Ltd (the manufacturers of C-Bus) whom we not only register C-Bus projects with for extended warranty and client security (should anything ever happen to our files etc.) but, also have non-disclosure agreements and partner contracts with.

To address any concerns you may have regarding a C-Bus ?system crash?, I can assure you that not only is this incredibly unlikely in the absence of a critical hardware failure (as all programming is encoded into individual units on solid state memory), but would also be re-loaded/replaced for you under XXXXXXX warranty conditions during the warranted period. This is how we ensure that everything continues to operate as it should."


Darren, yes I do have a Colour C-Touch installed, thanks will give this a go. I imagine the XML file will be automatically saved into the CGate tag folder?

 

If you transfer the project from the Colour C-Touch to PICED, then there is an option to copy the project file into the C-Gate folder.

 

Sorry Ashleigh, I have to disagree. The customer will need to look at the contract signed for the installation. The installer is well within his/her rights to this however, I would (if I were the installer) make the following concession...

The Toolkit file really doesn't hold any IP. I cannot see any real reason (other that protecting the user from him/herself)why they can't provide it. In reality, they can aquire the Toolkit software and retreive a lot of the detail anyway.

The PICED file is a different story. This can (and often will) hold IP that the installer has probably developed over a long period of time including the UI and logic code. I understand they would not want this to be given to a customer. They (the customer) may have a friend who is doing their own home and wants a file for their own screen. They also may be so thrilled with the system, they decide to go into business for themselves... They have a ready-made file. I'm sure many of you have spent many hours developing your own projects and would not like others to benefit from your hard work without paying due consideration.

I have personally been on the recieving end of both of these experiences despite assurances from the customer(s) they wouldn't do it! I did however have the last laugh when the customer's friend (the second case... I learned my lesson the first time) found the Crestron module I wrote, caused his controller to send me an email advising of the theft as well as causing buffer overflows due to the mis-match of the serial numbers of the controller. The overflows could be easily fixed... remove my module!

Anyway, I'm not saying the user will do this, just saying I understand the installer's position

 

Darren,

Thanks, was able to retrieve tag and labels from CTC and save them into the cGate tag directory, which now the toolkit displays tags and DLT labels .

All, thanks for you input and assistance, my concerns are that if I wish to change UI and Logic in CTC, then could this be done by another Cbus PointOne installer/programmer without the project files?

As now, when I look at the project file I download from the cbus network, I see goups under the lighting application that have no dependencies on input and output units and are just empty, majority of these are for scenes, and are used in both input units and CTC?

 

The CTC contains the complete CTC project file, so anyone could make changes to it. However, if your original installer actually does have some of his own IP in the project (logic algorithms, images etc), then you should really be getting the original installer to make these changes.

I am not sure what you are asking here. Which "project file" are you referring to? Which software are you looking at it with? What do you mean that the groups are "just empty"?

 

Gee how would they do that ?????

dave"

 

Darren,

It seems all my lighting application with group address label as scene in the toolkit DB, are referencing the C-Touch scene and scheduler application.

I couldn't understand where the scence logic was kept when I first download my project via the toolkit, as I had group labels with scene names, but couldn't find the logic in the toolkit. It wasn't until I download the CTC project via PICED and look at the scheduler and scence logic application.

Is this standard practice in setting up scence and schedules on the CBus network, using the CTC logic engines? I suppose none of the key switch input units support schedules, so you need the CTC to setup schedules.

 

I think by all your questions that you should be chasing up a training course and paying for the knowledge.
it is all well and good asking a few questions and finding some stuff out - but as for standard practices questions and stuff - that is why you engage a professional Point one accredited installer because they have a great deal of experience and should give you a trouble free install.

I not saying the your installers were not w@nkers and you don't want to see them anymore, But I am sure that at that level they have the experience which you have paid for.

if you want them to still warrant the project I suggest that you make sure they are paid for what they have done and agreed to do, and if there are issues with them personally I would perhaps engage another accredited proffessional to maintain the system.

But regardless of that, If you have paid for the solution I do believe it is in your right to have the information.

who owns the right to the installation software 'Clipsal' not the poor programmer who coded it, But clipsal also paid the programmer to program it for them.

 

Oracle,

I do agree with you, this is the main reason why I engaged an accredited Point one installer rather than a sparky, who state they do Cbus installs.

The great thing about cbus is that it is flexible, but to have a Point One installer come out to change some basic functionality, such as scene or a key switch button group assignement, defeats the purpose.

It would be ideal if clipsal came up with a simple drag and drop UI for this stuff, so the home user could appreciate the benifits of Cbus home automation. Otherwise your installation becomes static and never changes, might as well be hardwire.

 

I agree with both sides does that mean I am neutral???


I like my clients playing with there installs I even give them basic training

 

BillieGee, it is quite hard to understand your questions because you are using terminology in different ways to how it is used with C-Bus. This is to be expected if you have not done any C-Bus training, but it does make answering your questions very difficult.

We use the term Application (capital A) to refer to a set of messages and concepts on C-Bus. There is no Scene or Scheduling "Application". Scenes and Schedules result in messages on the Lighting Application (usually).

Schedules and Scenes are separate from "logic". Scenes can be stored in Key Input Units, which can be seen in ToolKit. Key Input Units do not support Schedules, which is why you can't find them in ToolKit. Schedules are only in the devices programmed by PICED (touch screens, PAC and Wiser).

Schedules and Scenes are separate from logic. If you want a basic Schedule or Scene, there is no need to use the CTC logic engine. Logic is only required if you have some special requirement which is not supported by the in-built Scene Manager or Schedule Manager.

 

Darren,

I do appologies with my details of the CBus terminology.

I have considered the CBus trianing session, but I don't want to do installs, just do basic functionality stuff.

I think I'll stick to the user manuals and get my foundation correct.

Thanks all for your input on this thread.