Decommissioning an unreliable C-Bus system (looking for alternatives)

Hi there,

I realize these are "trade" forums, so hope this post is not too inappropriate for here ...

We have invested a 6-figure sum in the installation of a C-Bus system, which unfortunately has given us nothing but trouble ever since it was installed.

I won't go into all the gory details, but we've had one blackout too many, and are looking into options for decommissioning (ripping out) the entire system... and to replace it with something that hopefully proves more reliable.

My initial reaction is to replace it with a complete stock-standard lighting system... very unfortunate, given the amount of money we have spent ... yet it may be our only option, since the ongoing issues we are experiencing are very hard to live with.

I realize, though, that this will be a mammoth undertaking, due to the completely different wiring used by C-Bus. I assume we'd have to rip off virtually every wall in the house, repaint, replaster, etc ... not ideal!

Are there any other systems I could look at, which would utilize some of the existing C-Bus wiring? It doesn't need to be a completely integrated system; it just needs to work.

Schneider have made a (VERY limited) offer of support, and I would like to know what our options are before proceeding ...

Thanks in advance for any insights or suggestions ...

 

I'm sorry you have been let down. C-Bus is a very reliable system when correctly installed and configured.

If you change your mind, and decide to provide some of the "gory detail" in these forums, you'll probably will get some good suggestions to get your network up and running well.

 

Hello Hotjacket

I have found CBus light control to be robust and very reliable.

It seem a shame to rip it out and replace it with conventional wiring rather than finding the cause of your trouble.

Please do post some more info.

 

I am willing to fly there to have a look. No cost or obligation. If you are happy with my advice cover the cost of my airline ticket.

There are options but im afraid that they are not cheaper than CBUS. They are about 3X more in parts costs.

 

Hi HotJacket,

If Tobex is too busy, I'll join this conga line!!!

C-Bus is extremely reliable if installed properly, I would confidently fly over to you, check your network, stay until the problems are resolved and hopefully still spring ski a few days when finished!!! All for far far less than replacing the 'defective' system.

I can only surmise that you have a currently unresolved installation problem (unless your house is located in the proverbial 'MRI scanner' or your AC changes frequency or voltage like your radio) and Clipsal / Schneider can probably only 'help to a degree' as it is really (normally) the installer's responsibility to support their installation and get it working for you.

Yes, you are on a 'trade board' only in that it is full of interested competent installers who will confidently help you get your problems resolved. All C-Bus customers are welcome here.

Funny you speak of blackouts.... I live in a fairly upmarket area and when there is a blackout, my house is the only one in 2 sq km with the lights on thanks to my UPS and C-Bus. It is almost never down, unless I'm playing that is!!

Maybe you could start by giving us insatiable techs a description of all that is happening.

Brad

 

We should all go there and do one of those renovation rescue type events.

 

There are great deals on NZ flights now, with big cities cheaper than a sparky's call out fee

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

Regarding the specific faults, we've been getting:

- frequent total blackouts (2 just yesterday, for example),
- communications errors (switches flashing blue/orange when pressed),
- certain lights staying on indefinitely (i.e. we're unable to turn them off for weeks on end),
- things simply not working (perhaps related to the communication errors).

Unfortunately the company that installed the system no longer deals with C-Bus, and doesn't have the resources (e.g. staff trained in C-Bus) to do so.

We have done already had a lot of diagnostic work done by some qualified installers here, who have:

1. Ensured there are three clocks at all times
2. Ensured 1 burden exists
3. Checked voltages
4. All programming databases have been peer-reviewed in Australia
5. Diagnostic utility checks (stacks up fine until network goes down then disconnects so fault is un-measurable)
6. Disconnected alarm interface units from network
7. Disconnected outside buildings from network (Including Underground cable) after which time the house clearly had problems still
8. Disconnected All outdoor sensors

Then, from there...

1. Removed all units from the network
2. Checked all termination points for loose connections
3. Checked continuity from point to point
4. Checked insulation resistance from point to point
5. Measured resistance / inpedence of all cables
6. Mapped out wiring topology as this other stuff is carried out
7. Ensured resistance of the full wired network less the units is to standard

Given the above (fairly exhaustive) tests performed, the process of elimination is starting to point to faulty Clipsal hardware being installed as the most likely cause.... but how can we identify which part(s) are faulty?

To be honest, we're running out of ideas here ... any suggestions much appreciated...

 

How old is the installation? I have had the same issues and it turned out to be old powers supplies hidden in the roof under insulation.

 

It's about 5 years old, although has been misbehaving since new, were these Clipsal power supplies or something else? Thanks in advance!

 

I've been reading this thread with interest.

I've had a couple of bad experiences with C-Bus installations and they have always been cabling faults or changes to the system. The typical cabling faults I'm talking about are where rodents eat through cables or someone damages a cable through putting a nail through the cable or a shovel through a conduit with the cable inside. The other main problem I have seen is when systems are updated ad-hoc and the additions are not done well. You said your system has been completely checked out (you didn't mention if you found anything wrong by the way, only the tests), so I'm struggling to understand why you are having problems still.

I'm intrigued by your comments that they system has not been working for 5 years... I would have done something much earlier myself if it is such an issue.

BTW, your not in Chrischurch are you? If so, maybe you've got issues with earthquake damage... just a thought.

 

Hi Hotjacket,

Thanks for the fault and current testing completed details. It sounds like you have covered a fair few avenues already and that helps. I am sure with all the people watching this forum, you will get plenty of possible scenarios to check out.

To get started and save a lot of questions about config, it would be great if you had some basic starting information you could post for us. Things that would be helpful include:

1. A basic diagram (even hand drawn) of the C-Bus network layout showing module locations, switchplates and C-Bus cable path (if known). Also show outbuildings and any modules etc placed out there.

From Toolkit
2. in the Units section under the Project name.
A list of 'Units on Network' from Toolkit. Easily done by a print screen/s saved in paintbrush etc to JPG.(or you can PM me / others who ask your project XML file from the C-Gate/Tag directory). Slide the middle bar up to maximise the network view rather than the database view.

3. With the 'Network' highlighted, what are the readings for 'Current consumption','Current Supply','Impedance','units calculated','units not calculated' and number of units that scanned.

Thanks,

Brad

 

Thanks for the information.

From your description, I agree that one possibility is a faulty unit or intermittent burden on the network. There is also a possibility of an intermittent short between the C-Bus conductors somewhere or an intermittent break.

Since you've done all the basic tests and things should be ok, the next thing I would suggest is (if you can) split the network into two or more independent sections. Depending on how it is wired, you should be able to preserve most of the functionality in each section by keeping inputs and associated outputs connected together. Next time you see the fault, it would be very surprising if it occurs on both networks, so you should be able to rule out groups of units this way. This is the best way to isolate the fault because it checks out both units and wiring.

Another way to isolate, if you have access to an oscilloscope, you could monitor the bus waveform during an 'event'. If you don't see a clean waveform with regular clock pulses every 2 milliseconds (some 'ringing' at the edges of the waveform is normal), then it's likely that an intermittent wiring or unit fault is causing a disturbance. Removing units or network sections should eventually show you any faulty unit / section.

I have experienced a similar issue once which was caused by a bad solder joint. The unit was manufactured before 2000 so was quite old, and it always worked just fine when it was cool. When the temperature rose high enough, it would start to become very noisy which disrupted bus communication. Taking units off the bus one by one and testing them individually never showed the problem, because the time between removing the units and testing them was enough to allow them to cool down. I only isolated the problem with an oscilloscope and by removing units when the problem occurred.

These faults are very rare - I've not seen one since.

As Figjam suggested, similar symptoms can be seen with intermittent cable faults and where units can suffer moisture damage during rain.

 

Hi, you don't say where you are in this lovely country but I have seen similar results when the supply voltage drops to less than 210V. Certainly not the most likely thing (unless you live on the Chathams) but worth checking.

Other than that I agree with most of the others here in that the c-bus network wiring followed by perhaps a faulty burden/power supply would be the most likely culpret.

As others have said if you can separate out you network segments a bit more you should be able to track it down eventually.

If you can get hold of a TDR, or an electronics tech with an oscilloscope and a signal generator you are almost certain to find a crushed/cut/stapled cat 5 cable.

Lastly, don't take it out, it truly is a fantastic system. The right person WILL be able to track down your problem.

Sounds like the Aussies are champing at the bit to prove they can fix it before us Kiwis so the chances of it being fixed soon are good.

Matthew

 

I personally think it is water ingress or a data cable that is chaffed on sharp metal. I have seen things like this where data cable is damaged or wet.

 

We had some projects, where system started to behave bad after some years. It usually was power frequence instabilities, issued by new ventilation or another powerful system installed in house nearby. Alot of situations like this here in Russia

UPS like this helped: http://www.i-tech.com.au/products/7...C+SMART+UPS+RT+1000VA+230V+Online+SURT1000XLI

it should be forced to do ac/dc/ac converison even if it thinks power is good enough (it does not monitor frequency float and goes to ECO mode if voltage is good)

 

Come clean

Hotjacket

You need to come clean about what has been found on your system! You have posted on this forum casting aspersions on the C-Bus system and have not responded to questions about what was found in the tests.

I have become aware of your case and have looked into the results. IMHO, you have been deliberately misleading my omitting many of the details and feel it is only fair that you disclose fully the details of your system to those you have been seeking help from.

Waiting for your response...