Curtain control

Hi

has anyone used the L5504RVFC: 4-Channel Voltage Free Change-Over
Relay, 240V AC, 10A, with power supply

to control a projector screen or curtains, as I understand this unit
is better suted to that kind of control than the standard C-Bus relay

can anyone confirm this ?

how is this relay wired diffrently than the standard one ?

Best regards,
Arni

 

Arnis,

The L5504RVFC is perfect for projector screens and cutains. Very easy to cable (two actives, one to the N/O, and one to the N/C) with a common active supply. The only drawback is if you want to stop something halfway like having curtains partially open, it can not be done with the L550RVFC alone. The L5504RVFC is as its description suggests either N/O or N/C. To fix this problem, a normal relay can be wired in series with the supply (common active), and controlled to provide you with infininite stop positions, rather than being limited to all the way up, or all the way down.

 

Hi and thanks for your response,

If it will not handle anything else then fully opend or fully closed, for curtains, would it not just be better to use a standard CBUS relay and use one channel for upp and one channel for down, I.E. use two channels of a relay, and that way I would be able to control up and down as much as I like ?

are there any problem with that ?

 

ch-ch-ch-ch-changeover

Just make sure that there is no possible way (power up - powerfail recovery etc) that both 'up' and 'down' relays can be closed at the same time as some motor control gear finds this 'non habit forming' ie it kills them. C/O relays ensure that this can never happen as when one is closed the other has to be open.

 

check the current draw of your blind motor or motors as i think the contacts on the change over relay is not 10a

 

should have added LV dc to my previous post, the contacts may be 10A at mains but i doubt if they are 10A at 12v dc and if you are running a whole load of blinds together using the one set of c/o contacts you may hit a problem

 

I just stuck a standard off the shelf relay with NO and NC contacts on my screen and controlled the coil with one channel. I had the relay in stock (left overs) so it worked out as a cheaper option for me. Doesn?t give me the option of stoping it in the middle though.

 

Relay

Ok

so from what I understand the best option would be to use a standard CBUS relay and use one contact for up and one for down, Then use a external relay ( i.e. non cbus, just a standard non controled relay) to ensure that both wires are not active at the same time.

then I would get precise up and down control.

is there any reason to use the C-BUS change over relay insted of this configuration

 

Howdi,
I can think of no reason to use a L5504RVFC for your curtain control. Stick with a standard CBus relay open and close and use a normal non cbus relay as the interlock. This is the cheapest and most configurable method, in my humble opinion anyway. Others may differ but I can't see any logical reason to use the L5504RVFC.

If the unit was redesigned to have the operation of NC-OFF-NC, as has been suggested by someone previously then things would be quite different. In its present form the L5504RVFC is quite limited, so I've been told anyway.
cheers

 

Stop

We are currently finishing an apartment project with multiple blinds per apartment. We found that the normal relay was the go. The particular blinds that were used (No, i don't know the brand) used both an input Up & Down at the same time to stop the blinds (Just the way their control box worked?). It was easy just to use logic to activate both channels to stop. Most blinds just want a toggle up or down to activate, once the toggle is released the blinds stop. Just investigate the brand of blinds and their capabilities.

Cheers,

 

depending on your switch control will determine your ability to stop/start your up/dn process using the change over relay. just finished a job and works fine, even works fine connected to a RF keyfob.
regards
grant

 

Curtain and blind control

Blinds and curtains are a tricky thing to control. There a three main types of blinds and curtains available. Those that are 240V driven, using an active for each direction of travel. Those that are LV driven, generally 24DC, which normally require a change of polarity to reverse direction, and those that have a 240v AC supply, and rely on dry contact pulses for either up or down, and a pulse on both to stop.
There are pro's and con's to all types. It is recommended you speak to the supplier / manufacturer prior to designing your controls. Check with the manufacturer to see if you need to fit group controllers if you are wiring up more than one motor the each relay output.

Good luck

 

Motor interfacing

Hi all,

we are actually a supplier of roller blind, shutter and other motors (tubular motors) and sell a number of controllers to manufacturers of Curtain track motors.
One very important point that was also forgotten to mention if you want to control an AC motor directly: There should be a switchover delay between up and down for at least 0.5 seconds (you also don't reverse your car while your speeding forward, do you
Depending on the brand of curtain motor, you might get lucky and have a low voltage input which takes care of this switchover delay (i.e. Silent gliss motors).
Almost all tubular motors (used in Blinds, Venetians, screens, etc) will not have such an input!

When trying to program a switchover delay via C-bus there are a lot of things to look after that it is guaranteed to work (i.e. what happens if the owner wants to close while a timer tries to open it?).
Also, you would like to integrate a timer for the running time of the motor, otherwise your clients needs to press the button for as long it takes to open the blind/ curtain!

I actually can also offer an easy way out:
We have a control box that links perfectly to the C-bus. Just link a closing relay to the low voltage inputs on our controller and set your C-bus to "bell-press":

Contact closure for open
Opens the curtain until it reaches its built in limits (and switches power off to the blind after about 3 minutes)

Contact closure for close
Closes the curtain until it reaches its built in limits (and switches power off to the blind after about 3 minutes)

Contact closure in opposite direction
Stops the motor

Contact closure open and close
Stops the motor

A number of controllers are available. Fore example for Venetian with inching fuction (less 1 sec inching, longer than 1 sec. latching to go all the way) on some even with intermediate position, radio recevier, IR receiver, sun sensor, etc.

Hope that helps

 

What standard relay to use

I am gong for the CBUS relay + standard relay to ensure that both channel can not be active at the same time ( i.e. non cbus, just a standard non controled relay)

can anyone point me in a driection on the web where I can order these standrad relays.

Thanks

 

I can't help you with the realys, but since your original intention is to use switchover relays on the C-bus side you can electrically interlock them (and safe yourself an extra wiring job!):

Wire 240V Power to input of relay 1
Wire NC closed output of relay 1 to input of Relay 2
Wire NO contact of relay 1 in one direction
Wire NO contact of relay 2 in opposite direction
If both relays activate at the same time there will be no power supplied to Relay 2 and therefore you do not get power to opposite directions.

Voila
(However you will still need to take care of switch-over delay between up and down to not damage the motor in the long run and please no parallel connection of motors (there is a capacitor in there between up and down direction)

Someone asked me about the documentations of the Components I suggested earlier: I will put them on the thread later.

 

First time to upload something here, hope it works.
Below some ideas for Motor integration (Curtain, Blind, Awning, Venetian, Roman shade etc)

"Basic bmcs requirements.pdf”
Short version showing connection example and base requirements

"Comprehensive BMCS requirement.pdf"
Comprehensive version "the whole story" about BMCS integration to motors (no diagrams)

“C-bus to elero controller page 1.pdf”
Popular elero controllers for C-bus integration

“C-bus to elero controller page 2.pdf”
Connection examples of popular elero controllers to C-bus

“plug & play radio remote for cbus interfacing.pdf”
Pictures of Plug & Play (prewired with plugs) interface option with radio receiver built in (Also available without)

That should provide some with good weekend reading
enjoy it! (the weekend)

 

Installation and Training - Training Manuals

Installation and Training - Training Manuals has instruction for the 5504rvfc, regarding blind controls

link
http://www.clipsal.com/cis/pdf_files/5504RVFC_Wiring_notes.pdf
________
volcano vaporizer

 

Hmm,
Thanks for the link to the doco.
The average house with blind/curtain control == 6 blinds on average.

Based on that doco using 6 off the L5504RVFCP @ $377.77 + GST. = $2,266.62 + GST
Based on how we do it now using 1 off L5512RVFP @765.08 + GST. Add 6 x 2 pole contactors @ 34 +GST = $204.00 + GST. Total =$969.08 +GST.

Hmm, I didn't mention switch board space did I.

Cheers

 

This setup might void warranty

If I do read the above manual correctly, it actually might void the warranty on the motors!
You can ignore all this if you are having DC motors with Low voltage control inputs.
However, if they are 230V AC motors, directly controlled, than almost all manufacturers specify a 0.5 sec (500msec) break between the up and down direction upon reversing the directions.

Find attached how most AC motors are wired internally, including the switchover delay requirement.
(If the break is not built in than the feedback voltage might weld the limit switches shut or burn the motor out over time)

Better check with the motor supplier about this switchover delay.

 

Third party or Manufacturers blind controllers

Don't waste your money on third party controllers
With a little thought in PROGRAMMING C-bus can meet all the requirements even the 0.5 sec delay<min> on change of direction, especially if you have the likes of a c-touch, not to mention powerful tools such as Homeminder, schedule plus, etc which makes the task even easier.
Though its a good idea to have physical interlocking which ever way it is achieved.

sorry Elos just telling it how it is.