Controlling a garage door with CBUS

Ah, that has finally answered my original question way back in mid May.
The answer to my original question is NO as there was 240V in.

Thanks

 

Just did some further reading about relays.

The Installation notes (and some old forum threads) state that the relay will not function if there is NO input power connected.
With NO input power and only CBus power you can program the unit but the relays will NOT switch.

From Installation manual (same for the RVFC relays)

The 5504RVF Series C-Bus Four Channel Voltage Free Relay products can be programmed without a mains connection. The unit can be connected to any operational C-Bus Network that is capable of supporting one or more extra C-Bus units (18mA current required). The unit can then be configured using the C-Bus Installation Software. Indicators and relays will only function when a mains connection is made.


Given that, if you have a relay
with NO input power connected
CBUS power connected
2 wires from remote switch connected to one channel
GA of relay channel set to be toggled by a cbus wall switch ( NEO/SATURN/2000 )

then when you press the button of your NEO/SATURN/2000 series switch , the relay will NOT switch as there is NO input power, therefore, the channel will not be switched to connect the 2 wires.

Am I missing something here?

 

Ok, stuff this, you wanna know the simplest solution to your problem?

Go get any C-Bus relay that takes your fancy, and put 240v into it.

Go buy any normal relay, just a standard one that has nothing to do with C-Bus, but has a 240v coil, rating can be anything, you only need to switch milliamps here. (cost around $5-30), (unless you get a standard 20A DIN contactor, which are a little more expensive). Your local L&H, AWM, Middy's, etc should have what you need.

Install the C-Bus relay wherever, it doesnt matter, and run some 1.5mm T+E from it to the roof above the motor (for example).

Get a small junction box that is 240v rated.

Run the 2 remote wires from the motor into this junction box, and connect one wire to the C terminal of the non-CBus relay, and the other to the NO terminal.

Connect the Active and Neutral of the 1.5mm T+E from the C-Bus relay to the 240v Coil on your nifty new basic relay.

Close up the junction box.

Hey presto, problem solved

Either that, or you could just use a Change-Over C-Bus relay.... (I'm gonna shutup before I get something thrown at me )

Darpa

 

Opener

Is it a Chamberlan range Door Opener at all ?

 

It is a B & D Split Panel door with a wired button and 2 wireless remotes.

 

Yes, you are missing the emphasis.

** NO POWER ** means just that.

The "voltage-free relay" modules I've used (12-channel) have TWO places you "typically" connect power. The C-bus side on the left, and the "output" side on the right. If you are NOT switching 240V (for example, if it's controlling garage doors, watering systems, LV garden lights etc), you STILL NEED TO PUT POWER ON THE C-BUS SIDE.

There is the "C-BUS connection" - the RJ45 connectors, which provides communications and a small amount of power for the logic.

There is the "C-BUS side mains" - which supplies the higher currents required to operate the relays, and if you have a "with power supply" module - that helps to contribute to the 30-odd-volts supply to the c-bus

The last is any (optional) connection of 240/mains to connect to the relay (contacts) side to actually power loads.

If you have the first source only (ie, c-bus communications cable), there is enough power there to actually *program* the thing, but thats it.

If you have the second ONLY (ie, mains power to the module but no c-bus and no power to contacts) it'll "look" alive, and you can manually toggle the relays etc.

With BOTH these two, the things will operate perfectly happily, the relays will operate and if you're using them in this manner, will switch low-voltage loads PERFECTLY HAPPILY. Absolutely guaranteed.

 

That is exactly what I have here. Two B&D panel-tilt doors, each 4m wide.
I have both connected with the manual (internally illuminated) switch across the control terminals, and *TWO* relays for each door - via interlock door position switches - so under c-bus control I can "open" a door, or "close" a door without needing to know its current position. I can also "toggle" a door, regardless of its position.

In the garage, I have an 8-gang NEO which operates each door up/down and all the lights, but is also connected to the alarm system and c-touch so they can control doors as required also.

The relay module that controls the doors has no 240V connected to the "load" side at all, it is only for "LV" use - water transfer pump (24V), garage doors, generator start, inverter control etc.

 

Thanks RossW
As you gathered, I am NO electrician so some of the electrical wording confuses me :rolleyes

Using say a 5504RVF Relay (with Power Supply)

(CBUS Connection)
Plug in CBUS RJ45 cable from CBus network to RJ45 CBus connector on Relay

(CBUS Mains connection)
Connect mains to Earth/Line1/Line2 as Input to control the relay
(Both of these are on LEFT side of Relay Module)

(Load side - Right side of module)
Connect the 2 wires from the switch to say 1A/1B on right side of relay.

DO NOT CONNECT ANY 240V item (light etc) to any other terminals on RIGHT side of relay
( 2A/2B 3A/3B 4A/4B) as this will then send 240V thru 1A/1B as well.

I hope this is correct else I will just shoot myself
If this IS correct, then a 5102RVF would suffice.

PS - What does 'Voltage Free' actually mean?
Is that what allows you to connect LV (24V etc) even though the 240V Mains is connected to the CBus Mains input?

Martin

 

A lot of stuff has a relay-switched output in it (or triac/SCR etc), where internally, one side is connected to the active. Thus, a lot of things (like movement sensors) have only 3 wires - active in, neutral in, and "load" out - where you would connect your load (lights) between the "load" out and neutral.

It could have been done with a relay, but that would then (gasp!) require an extra link - probably beyond some sparkies!

Voltage-free is a term that has come to be accepted as "bare, dry contacts, not connected to anything". They are VASTLY more flexible in terms of what you can, and cannot do.

I cite by way of example, the c-bus 8-way dimmer module. It has a single common rail for the active "supply" side of all 8 output channels. You CANNOT split loads across different phases. You CANNOT feed half the outputs from a non-interruptable supply etc.

The 12-way "voltage-free" relays however have 24 terminals for the 12 channels - each channel has either side of the relay available. If you WANT to run them all from the same circuit or phase, you CAN by putting in links. But you CAN also use each relay in isolation, not connected to anything else.

(So yes, "voltage free" simply means "isolated from everything else" in this context)

 

Thanks RossW

Much appreciated

 

No, Connecting 240V to any other terminal will not put 240V on terminals 1A/1B, they are all seperated from each other.

Mick

 

THanks, after reading RossW replies a few times and reading the Hardware Installaton PDF a few times etc I now understand how it works.

If you run a link wire from the ACTIVE (CBus Mains 240V) to 1A or 1B then that channel will have 240V.
At the same time, you can run an ACTIVE 120V power source to 2A or 2B and that channel will have 120V whilst 1A/1B will still have 240V

Martin

 

Hey, Marty - I think you've got it !

In my mind, I consider "Voltage Free contacts" to mean "free of any voltage", so both contacts are without any voltage. Kind of like how someone who's "Inhibition Free" doesn't have any inhibitions - so therefore you can do anything with them .

Thus, to make the RVF relay channel send a voltage out to a light or something, you have to (deliberately) feed your own voltage into whatever contact you want to use. Alternatively, you could decide to make those contacts do something else, in your case they could be used to pretend they were a switch.

One thing I'd add... since you are a self-professed "non-electrician", I would not suggest you actually perform that wiring yourself. Whilst it might appear that you understand what we have explained here, it would not be good if you accidentally connected something wrongly and cremated yourself

Cheers, John

Oh - and as Darpa said earlier, if you only need 1 channel you could use a 5101R to switch a (separate) 240V AC relay that has Voltage Free outputs. Alternatively, if you already have a spare 240V relay channel somewhere (eg: on a 12 channel that is doing 240V stuff already), you can use that device to switch your relay. Then you'd connect your switch wires to the terminals of the relay instead. This is more complex than a straight C-Bus solution, and also requires you to make some form of enclosure to house the 5101R and/or the Relay... but it's probably going to be cheaper that buying a C-Bus RVF unit and only use 1 channel of it.

 

There is NO way I would do the wiring myself.
I just like to know how to do things and what can be done.

Wiring the 240V side WILL be done by a licensed electrician.
(Makes sure it is safe/legal and also covered in case of insurance claim if needed)

This job is a few months away as there are other things being done now.

The job will involve a 12 channel relay for fluro lights etc and I will end up using a seperate relay to control the garage door just to ensure that NO 240V can get thru.

Thanks to EVERYONE for your help.

Martin

 

You're very welcome Martin, glad to help

 

In that case, you sound like the perfect client ! If only we could get all the Users to educate themselves about what is possible and to really THINK about what they want to do with their system. An informed client makes the whole process *SO* much easier, and at the end of the project the result that is acheived is perfect for everyone involved.

It's really hard to make a good installation when the client doesn't have a clue what they want, or even why they want a control system at all

Cheers, John