C-bus beginner, new home install

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by Dave_F, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    Hi Team,

    I asked the question on a different thread but didn't have any joy.

    I am just building my first house and am going to install C-bus with the SHAC driver. To be honest, I have never touched C-bus and limited domestic work but working with some of my mates (Industrial & domestic) to try and suss it all out. I am a qualified electrician and have a permit to work for self.

    I plan on installing the following

    Output’s

    1 x 5500SHAC Wiser home automation controller 6 modules wide

    1 x 5500PS C-bus power supply 4 modules wide (unsure if this is required to provide the 36V for the C-bus system)

    5 x L5508D1AP 8 1A Channel dimming relays 12 modules wide

    2 x L5512RVF 12 10A Channel relays 12 modules wide

    1 x L5504RVF20P 4 20A Channel relay (for IR heaters) 12 modules wide

    5 x L5501RFCP 3 speed fan relays 3 modules wide

    3 x L5501RBCP Shutter relays (more for roller shutters in future) 2 modules wide

    1 x Pink C-bus cable


    Input’s

    6 x 5085EDLW eDLT Saturn series pure white

    2 x 5086NL-PW 6 key C-bus switches Saturn series pure white

    7 x 5084NL-PW 4 key C-bus switches Saturn series pure white

    2 x 5082NL-PW 2 key C-bus switches Saturn series pure white

    3 x 5753PEIRL Indoor C-bus occupancy sensor

    3 x 5753L Indoor C-bus occupancy sensor

    4 x 5750WPL-GY Outdoor C-bus occupancy sensor

    1 x 5031RDTSL C-bus temperature sensor (Unsure if this is required)

    I am planning to put my sub board and C-bus panel in the garage so that it's all in one place (I see lots are saying don't but I have the space in there and can add another board if required later). Possibly looking at 2 boards so that I can put any output MCB's alongside the relay.

    Do i need to have an incoming 10A RCD/MCB feeding the lighting relays (Dimming or I/O) and a 1A MCB on each output of the 8 channel dimming relay?

    I am also interested to hear any further comments regarding the LED downlight's as well as any LED light strips, as I have a heap of them planned to be used with the L5508D1A. What model of light's are suitable? or do I need the load rectifier? Am I better off with the 4 channel universal relay? (by the look of other threads, thats a "no")

    on the 12 channel 10A relay do you install a larger (16A) RCD/MCB? Problem here is that the 16A breaker is too big for the 1.5mm cable. Should I put a feeding RCD/MCB in for all relays with output MCB's to suit the load?

    Is the 5500PS a necessity as a 36V power supply for the ELV or can it be provided via each of the powered relay units? If so I can just get powered dimmer relays to cover everything.

    Do i need to have a temperature sensor at all?

    I'm also looking at installing Power Tag's, so any info on that would be cool. Do I need to use 2 pole wide RCD/MCB's or can I get away with 1 pole devices?

    Dave
     
    Dave_F, Jan 31, 2019
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  2. Dave_F

    Conformist

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    Dave, use relay and dimmer units with in-built power supplies. You need to look at the current consumption of each unit you are connecting and then make sure you have enough current from the relays and dimmers. They each put out 200mA. Only use the dedicated power supplies if you need extra current.

    Good plan. I personally use 60 way boards (4 x 15 pole)

    No, you don't need the 1A MCB on the output channels. Where you see this in the instructions, it's for the UK market

    I've used the Haneco Viva110 multi LED downlights. No flicker issues. but, the minimum dimmed level is a bit high. This is more to do with the C-Bus dimmers as they can't go low enough

    This depends on the load and cable you are protecting. Treat it as you would any normal switched device. If you are switching lights (on 1.5mm), use a 10A RCBO. if you are switching a load such as heaters, use the appropriate size cable and RCBO

    See my earlier comment

    Put in a 4 channel temperature unit. At least connect a temperature sensor outside so you can display the current temperature on your eDLTs. I also put sensors in the roofspace and air cond return duct and outlet (if you have ducted ac)

    Maybe NickD can comment on these. Haven't tried them yet
     
    Conformist, Jan 31, 2019
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  3. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    Awesome info, thanks Mr Conformist. That gives me a better idea on some things that I won't need and a couple of extra things that I will put in (Temp sensors).

    I have also just heard back from the guys at lamp replacements Australia who got in touch with Phillip's and they say that their LED downlight is compatible with the C-bus leading edge dimmer. Now they're just trying to find a LED light strip to go with it.

    I'll update my list of C-bus hardware and send it off to my local distributor for a quote.

    My pre-wire will start later this month and I will be putting conduits in all of my walls so I'll have chance to change things as need be.

    Thanks again, and I'll look forward to any further comments or suggestions regarding C-bus and also the power tag's.
     
    Dave_F, Feb 1, 2019
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  4. Dave_F

    NickD Moderator

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    There are 2 options for the PowerTags.

    The original ones have an IP gateway that you can connect to via Modbus TCP. You can use this with the SHAC, but you will need to build your own UI etc.

    There is also a newer residential version being sold as "Wiser Energy", which is basically the same hardware, but with a more residential focussed firmware in the gateway. This gateway does NOT have Modbus TCP but instead connects to a cloud service and has an app with pretty graphs and things like that, as well as handling PV generation nicely (I believe this is the same app as the existing "WiserLink" product. I'm told it should be possible for the SHAC to connect to the cloud to pull down the data but I haven't yet done it myself. I'm planning on putting this one in the place my Dad is building at the moment.

    Nick
     
    NickD, Feb 1, 2019
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  5. Dave_F

    N.W.B

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    Hi Dave, I am in a very similar boat myself. Was wondering how you got on or getting on with your install?
     
    N.W.B, Jul 21, 2019
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  6. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    Hi N.W.B,

    It’s all coming along ok. I just have the fit off and automation board left to wire up (waiting on a painter inside and a garage door before I put all the automation gear in).

    I have done it slightly different to what I have now seen as the way to do it, as I have run a 2c&e back for each output. This now gives me a bit of a headache as I’m meant to keep the earths and neutrals separate. Therefore I really need an insulated terminal block for each one, but hoping I’m wrong on this.

    There has been a lot of work! Almost 4kms of cable pulled and clipped. None of it has just been run in the corner of the roof space, so it’s very neat. 140 Clipsal 413’s. All external wall S/O’s run in the cavity. 27 final sub circuits plus spares...

    It’s been big considering it’s only a 4/2 single story and I’ve gone way over the top (I’m glad I’m not paying someone else to do it) but will hopefully be all worth it soon.
     

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    Dave_F, Jul 21, 2019
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  7. Dave_F

    N.W.B

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    Looks very tidy from your photos. Be good to see the the C-Bus board once completed.

    The seperate earth neutrals ? What do you be that?

    Hope you don’t me asking but was the c-bus hardware very expensive in total?
     
    N.W.B, Jul 21, 2019
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  8. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    I’m not sure if I can have a neutral bar and an earth bar in the automation board as it’s all the protective earths feeding into a single protective earth and then back to the sub board where the circuit protective device is. I think I really need these to stay away from any other neutral otherwise the RCD’s will see an imbalance and trip.

    The cbus gear wasn’t cheap and Clipsal/Schneider were bloody hopeless to deal with. From the local reps to the national trainer. Don’t get me wrong, there were some shining lights but for the most, even when I wanted to throw thousands of dollars at them, they had no interest. The only way I could get some interest out of them was by saying I wanted to start a business using their gear and Cbus. They’re looking for Cbus programmers.

    My gear so far has cost just over 16k including light switches, Motion sensors and relays. As I said, I have gone over the top for a standard house, but look forward to seeing it done.

    I’ll probably need to pay someone to program it all now
     
    Dave_F, Jul 21, 2019
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  9. Dave_F

    N.W.B

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    Aah yes got yah, that could cause some issues. Was it by choice to have each circuit on a rcbo? Or is it wiring rule? We are aloud 3 circuits per single rcd.

    $16 k is still not bad considering what you would have over a conventional install from paying a another company.

    Have you done anything with A/C? I plan on putting a ducted unit in. Looks as if A/C starts to get rather technical with intergrating into c-bus from previous post on the forum.

    How have you pre-wired for your shutter relays? I’m unsure what to do there. Was planning on running a 3c+e and bring the blind motor cord into a permanent connection unit behind the curtains.
     
    N.W.B, Jul 21, 2019
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  10. Dave_F

    cbus-ed

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    Shouldn’t you have a circuit breaker for the surge protection?
     
    cbus-ed, Jul 21, 2019
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  11. Dave_F

    Ashley

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    Circuit breakers protect wiring. Surge protectors protect from surges. :) They should be installed in the main box for any Cbus install. (or any house really).

    Before you install all the gear, setup a test box with a dimmer/relay (with power supply), switch and pc interface. Download toolkit and the training docs and go through them. Setting up basic lighting is not that hard, and you can get clever later.
     
    Ashley, Jul 22, 2019
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  12. Dave_F

    cbus-ed

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    Couldn’t agree more Ashley
    I’m pretty sure the wiring rules state you must have a cb protecting the spd though.
     
    cbus-ed, Jul 22, 2019
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  13. Dave_F

    Timbo

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    Hi Guys,

    Dave & Nick - did you end up installing the PowerTag / Wiser Energy solution?
    Doesn't seem to be a lot of people using it (on here) - how do you see this as being a better alternative to say the energy monitoring hardware you can buy with your solar inverter?

    Cheers,

    Tim
     
    Timbo, Jul 22, 2019
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  14. Dave_F

    NickD Moderator

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    I ended up putting in the PowerTags, not the Wiser Energy, but only because my old man already has Wiser Link in his home and the Wiser Energy app only supports one property at the moment.

    TBH since I work for Schneider and it's my job to play with this stuff (eating my own cooking), I didn't even look at alternatives.. I like the PowerTags because they're super easy to integrate with the NAC/SHAC (just watch out for the 6 modbus device limit on the SHAC.... each PowerTag counts as a device), and it scales well (easy to add more channels).

    Nick
     
    NickD, Jul 23, 2019
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  15. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    I went and did the Cubs fundamentals course but can’t get in for the controller course as I’ll be at work every time it’s on. There was one course that I could have done but they wouldn’t respond to my emails so missed out.

    I haven’t put power tags in yet purely due to cost. My plan is to put them in down the track.

    I also thought that a CB would be required for the surge protection as I’ve never wired one before but I spoke to a friend that is an electrical engineer and he said no. I aslo confirmed this with the Clipsal tech help line.

    The surge protector can take multiple strikes (depending on severity) and you just need to check the red/white flag on them for when to replace them. I will have a few spare modules on hand just in case.
     
    Dave_F, Jul 27, 2019
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  16. Dave_F

    Damaxx

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    While the engineer and Clipsal tech help are technically correct, AS3000 Appendix F1.24 states overcurrent devices should be used to protect against short circuits.
     
    Damaxx, Jul 30, 2019
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  17. Dave_F

    Dave_F

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    Hi Guys,

    I have my outdoor PIR's (5750WPL) to install and see that they have a two core fly lead. I've seen that white is + and brown is - but do they join directly to the pink C-bus cable or is there a requirement for something else?
     
    Dave_F, Sep 19, 2019
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  18. Dave_F

    Conformist

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    You are correct. they connect directly to the C-Bus pink cable.
     
    Conformist, Sep 19, 2019
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  19. Dave_F

    DarylMc

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    Regarding circuit protection for surge protection devices.
    In the past I have seen a domestic switchboard explosion and fire due to 11kV aerial falling onto LV aerial supply.
    The premises had recently installed surge protection.
    It was a metal switchboard and had holes blown in it from the surge.
    All the switchboard wiring was burned and there was a real risk of fire spreading to the ceiling of the premises.
    As an electrical contractor you need to protect yourself by always reading and following the installation instructions of the equipment you install.
     
    DarylMc, Sep 19, 2019
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  20. Dave_F

    chromus

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    Dave -> I'm in Atwell, I for a long time had the largest domestic install for CBUS in WA.

    We should compare notes. FYI 16K is still a small install :p

    I had the first crappy batch of eDLTs with the peely paint on the buttons :( Took months to get them then weeks for them to acknowledge the issue then a month to get new buttons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
    chromus, Sep 26, 2019
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