Advice

good afternoon,

Im in the process of building a new home and will be investing into the CBUS system.

I have spoken to a couple of the registered system integrators to get a quote and an idea of what I like.

My question is, should I pay a premium and allow the integrator to project manage the installation (planning and programming) and supply the material, or should I procure the material myself and have a crack at the programming.

I have my own electrician who will perform the installation.

In brief, I plan to install the dimmer units, half a dozen or so occupancy sensors and I want to integrate my heating/cooling and alarm to the system.

I am also planning to pre-wire most rooms for internet/phone/tv-cable.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

What an excellent question to pose on a forum mainly inhabited by installers! Their reply's are likely to be biased slightly.

Looking at it from a different point of view - just the Basic course in C-bus programming is a 2.5 days which mainly covers programming concepts and then there is intermediate courses that last 2 days for the touch screens, phone interfaces etc. Most of the training manuals can be found on the CIS web site but getting hands on training is emeasurably better.

So far so good. Now weigh up the risks verses the benifits. Are you going to invest the time to take the training courses - assuming you can get on one (the waiting list in some states is long)? If not and you make the wrong product choices and/or do not direct the installing electrician correctly and/or you can't program the product to do what you want where do you go? An installer is going to charge to fix up any problems and CIS manufactur the product they don't do installation or training over the phone, if you havn't done the training course they are more likely to refer you to a competant installer.

Good installers who are properly trained and have experience of carrying out installations will genrally get the best out of the products, suggest recommend the correct products for what you want, either do the installation themselves or oversee the contractor that does and know some of the pitfalls to be avoided.

Just make sure if you hire an installer get one who is Approved by the company that makes the product and get a clear written quote and specification of how much it will all cost and what that cost covers

Are you intending to do your own plumbing as well?

 

UncleDick raises several valid points. And I say this, Nick, to reassure you that he's not just trying to drum up business for installers! I've been doing this for about 4 years and I'm always learning new ways to get more out of the system. A C-Bus system can be a big (expensive) disappointment if it's power isn't taken advantage of.

However.. it seems there are plenty of people on this forum who aren't professional installers, but people just like you who have a bit of a hunger to play with toys like this! That's how I started. If you want to take it on, do the course, and read every bit of literature you can (including this forum). Follow all the recommended guidelines and installation practices, don't cut corners.

If you do go it alone, I'd still recommend you pay for the services of an Approved Installer at least in a design/consult role.. you'll get the best installation if someone with plenty of experience is involved from the start. And be prepared to pay an Approved Installer to help out down the track if you get in too deep.

Good luck, have fun, and integrate your C-bus with heaps of other stuff just for the hell of it.

Now that's just cheeky!

 

Unlike Uncle Dick who has no agenda.

Nick, all I can add is the old adage, you WILL get what you pay for, one way or another.

Nick, get all the good advice you can. You can never have too much as long as its good.

Err, the plumbing is a piece of cake no advice needed for this one.

Cheers

 

thanks for the advice ....and sarcasm

my dilemma arises as a result of the huge price variance from quotes I got from you bloody installers.

 

OK the Plumbing bit was tongue in cheek but I wanted to make the point that the overseeing and programming of a good C-bus system is not something that 'just happens' it is a skill just like a host of other skills required to build a house. In all areas of home construction and maintainence there is stuff you do yourself and stuff you get experts to do and where you draw the line depends on your own skills and how you cost your own time (eg I get someone to cut my lawn not because I can't do it myself but because I've got better things to do with my spare time). The house I live in now was previously owen by a 'handy man' and while the plumbing he put in 'works' the pipes bang around in the roof as the washing machine solidoids go in and out etc and when the hot water system failed a couple of years ago (Adelaide water!) the guy who fitted the new one spent an extra half day fixing some of the more obvious shonky bits. As far as wildly differing quotes, get specific - nail them down to what exactly they are going to provide - get it in writing and then compare.

 

Wildly different quotes

hum.... have come across this a lot more than once. The wild price differences usually come about from a poor missing 'scope of work'. If you ask someone to "price" a job, you need to be quite specific about what they are to price for.

I have had numerous situations where builders have asked for a price to wire houses and hand me construction plans with no electrical layout, spec or scope of works on them at all. They don't want a price - they want a design with a price.

Be specific about what you want, how you wish it to function, where the locations are for the items etc. This will at least narrow the pricing down a bit. Quotation is expected to be free or at minimal cost. Design is not (ask an architect if he would design for free). If you have been given suggestions by people already and they have given you a price, be fair to them and let them have another shot at the price once you have worked out what you want.

 

Uncle and Advantex,
That?s all good advice. I hope you are taking notes there nick, and the best part is its free.
Cheers

 

Owner experiences

I moved into a new house with a C-Bus system & network / A/V wiring about 2 years ago. Here?s some thoughts:

1. It?s pretty hard to know in advance what you want out of the system. Two years later I?m still thinking of ways to improve / change things. It was that flexibility compared to hard-wiring that led me to install C-Bus in the first place, but it didn?t turn out to be quite as flexible as I had hoped. For example, the installer allocated lights to relays and dimmers as per my instruction, but after living in the place for a while I decided it would work better to reallocate some lights from relay control to dimmer control, and vice versa. Unfortunately in most cases the electrician had only run a single neutral back to the board corresponding to each relay / dimmer, making this exceedingly difficult to achieve.

2. I?ve also found that some seemingly simple things can be devilishly hard to configure, due to the way the product operates, and the poor documentation. You?ll find examples of what I?m referring to if you read through this forum. I?ve found it absolutely essential to use external controllers (I use Minder and C-Gate with custom software running on a server) to achieve the results I want, although if you persevere you might find that programming the units works nearly as well.

3. No matter which way you look at it, it is going to take a lot of time to get everything working the way you want it to, especially if you want to integrate it with your a/c & alarm, so the choice you have is either pay an installer big $$ to design and configure your system, or spend hundreds of hours learning how yourself. In my case I decided to spend the time to learn it myself, and it didn?t take long before I knew more than the installer. It would have been good to have that knowledge before I started.

4. Its all very well for installers to recommend accurately specifying your system so you can get an accurate quote, but I think you will be lucky if that happens. I specified my system to the best of my ability as an experienced engineer with an IT/electrical background (17 pages + plans). When the job was completed (3 months late) the installer still managed to find excuses to charge me thousands of dollars above his quote, even though I made no changes to the specs as the work progressed. I believe that is pretty much par for the course here in Australia...

 

thanks alex....

at last i got an owner's point of view....

i might go and chase a few more quotes (in the same time building my knowledge) and see if i can firm a few more prices

but as you said..im willing to spend some time and learn about the system

and yes....installers aint that bright!!!!!

 

mmmm.....

how much FREE EXPERT advice do you expect to get now???

 

you mean 'so called expert'

ive sat down with some integrators and had a chat where I knew more than they did in some aspects!

i was actually after an owner's experience which i got!

an owner can elect to participate in the same CBUS courses you guys have and have the same level of knowledge

 

Time Out,
Things seem to be getting hot down under.
From what I have read on this forum there, has been a post bag full of excellent advice, even though I have been installing C-Bus for over 5 years, I am still learning, and have got a lot to learn, hey, but thats C-Bus.

I have been asked to price for projects using C-Bus, design,install...whatever
Then asked to give a comparrison in conventional wiring, how can you, how can you compare, and I suppose the same can be said for intergrators, even if the same units have been specified, will you get the same integration (probably not)

I have c-Bus installed in my own house, so I suppose Nick I can see both sides.
Here in the UK clients ask themselves:-
Do I go for the highest price, get ripped off/get an excellent job
Do I go for the middle price, get ripped off/get an excellent job/get an inferior job
Do I go for the lowest price, get ripped off/ripp the contractor off/get an excellent job/ get a poor job.

My advice to you Nick would be to look at your prices if possible ask for a breakdown on the quotes, talk to the installers, ask yourself who you feel most comfortable with, see if you can look at another job the installer has completed. Talk to the client, Word of mouth, will tell you more of your installer, than his quote.

Like Uncledick said, if you have something better to do with your time, make more money AND get paid for it , then why waste your time sitting for hours in front of a laptop, which you will !! If you enjoy tinkering, IT and the like then C-Bus and this forum will talk you through the install.

 

DIY CBus job

Hi, well you have certinally hit a good topic. I make a living as an approved installer working on CBus systems and quality AV installs. Most of my work comes from customers who have a CBus system installed that are not performing to their expectations. I have a very good name for being able to figure out the customers needs and the installation design failings and then get to work adding a few minor items of hardware and sorting out the software side. I have found this great market because there are so many one off installs where the consumer or contractor (electrical) thought that they could with no previous experience learn with out any formal training all the ins and outs of the system and make it tick like it should. I can understand your concerns about a couple approved installers not meeting your expectations because a few years ago it was eaiser to get approved and there is no mechanism in place that checks to see if you still know what you are about a few years on. Ask your potiental installers about the most recent training they have done and for some references of jobs they have done in the last few months, and check up on them. If you want to do your work that is not a problem to me and I wish you good luck, I would just like to offer this analogy if you are intending to stay in your new house for a long time: Would you read up and attempt to defend yourself if you were on trial for murder? The reason I make this analogy is because I see 2 to 3 customers a week who thought they could get it right first time in the house of their dreams and have lived with dissapointment eversince. I hope that you read this not as a bias for approved installers but in the context of you having your expectations meet for years to come in the CBus product. Ian