Advice required - relay wiring for thermostat control

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mark Wagstaff, Jul 25, 2010.

  1. I already have a 4 zone thermostat (no relays - 5070THP) hooked up to my heating system (gas furnace heating + evaporative cooling).

    This was wired up to replace a conventional dial thermostat so not all the connections available in the heating system were made up. Consequently, I cannot take advantage of the two stage heating my furnace can provide.

    The attached pdf (left hand side) shows the page from the furnace manual for connecting the furnace to a conventional thermostat.

    The right hand side of the page is, from the 5070 installation guide, how a relay should be connected. However, the manual does not describe how to make up the matching terminal on each relay (ie terminal b). I suspect it has something to do with the common rail (C) on the furncace but the manual does not describe the details.

    Does anyone have any suggestions or point me in the direction of a more detailed manual, web page, etc?

    Thanks in advance,
     

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    Mark Wagstaff, Jul 25, 2010
    #1
  2. Mark Wagstaff

    Newman

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    Can you provide a link to the manual for that thermostat? It might offer a few clues.

    The most likely scenario is that two of lines going to the original thermostat provide it with 12 or 24V power + common and the other lines send 12/24V back from the thermostat to control the plant.

    My best guess, and it's only a guess, would be that the 'R' line represents the permanent power to the original Thermostat. If this is the case then it would need to be looped to one of the two terminals for each channel of the C-Bus Relay unit, so that each relay channel gets power.

    Another trawl of the Installation Instructions for the C-Bus Thermostat might give you a few clues.
     
    Newman, Jul 26, 2010
    #2
  3. Newman,

    Thanks for the response. Here is the installation manual. I have had to split it into three sections to meet the max file size for uploads. The wiring is shown on Figure 10, page 11.

    The 5070 manual doesn't really show the example of a thermostat without relays hooked up. With on-board relays, my system would look like Figure 10 in the manual. The is referred to as a 'USA system' in toolkit. Without relays it would look more like Figure 13. This shows a common rail across all the terminals but does not explain which line.

    I am concerned that hooking up the wrong common rail might release the magic smoke!

    regards,
     

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    Mark Wagstaff, Jul 26, 2010
    #3
  4. Mark Wagstaff

    industeq

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    Mark
    Are you in the USA ?
    I am in Houston and have a Clipsal thermostat that I am wiring mine on a single stage Lennox AC / Heat
    I to am scratching my head as the USA wiring is a tad different than over the pond.
    Here we have the wiring coloring as:
    Red = 24V
    White = Heat
    Green = Fan
    Yellow = AC compressor
    White = Heat/Furnace

    In the next few days I plan to install.
    However it seems it needs 2 ways to initially program.
    1 is by the thermostat by the push buttons
    2nd by the C-bus tool kit

    I am still looking into :)


    Alan in Houston
     
    industeq, Jul 29, 2010
    #4
  5. Mark Wagstaff

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Curious. The "RWG" standard that the thermostat uses originated with 24V heating systems in the USA :)

    Here is a attempt at what I think you will need:

    Your original pic shows your original thermostat with terminals;
    C
    R
    W1
    G
    Y
    W2

    I'm pretty sure W1, W2 are the 2 stages of heating.

    I'm then going to GUESS that R = Red = +24V (as suggested by Alan).

    G is most likely FAN.

    Which leaves C and Y. I'm guessing that Y is cool, and C... not sure, if this goes to the outdoor unit it could be pump or dump (or combo) depending on the outdoor unit. It could also be GROUND or COMMON.

    Lets assume for now that we have:

    R = Red = +24V
    G = FAN
    W1 = Heat stage 1
    W2 = Heat stage 2
    Y = Cool
    C = ???

    Then you need to duplicate that arrangement using a cbus relay (because your cbus thermostat is the model w/o relays).

    If you look in the link posted by Newman for the thermostat manual, and check figures 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 then I think you will be getting close.

    Fig 9 in particular is a big hint - substitute the Heat Pump cooler for an evap unit and its starting to look similar.

    Looking at your Lennox wiring diagrams, fig 10 - this confirms that W2 is used for 2nd stage heating. If you don't want to use that then don't connect it.

    Looking at Fig 13 of the Lennox manual, it appears to be a horrible amalgam of the external box wiring, as well as the internal schematic wiring shown in the bottom right hand side, with the room thermostat shown as S1.

    This SEEMS to show:
    R = a common input to the room stat, sourced from 24V (yay, 1 guess correct)
    W1, W2 = heating (another guess correct)
    Y = cooling - goes to the main box but is not connected there, so on the main box its a looping terminal that then goes to the outdoor unit
    G = much the same as Y... another looping terminal to the outdoor unit
    C = ground

    Exactly HOW those terminals make the unit operate is not very clear from the diagram but seems like we're on a moderately sensible track here.

    NOW THAT HARD PART.

    You show your cbus relay with terminals a, b for each relay. You have basically duplicated the connections from the original thermostat room unit to terminals on a cbus thermostat.

    That won't work.

    You need to check the Lennox manual, fig 13. Look at "S1 Room Thermostat" in the middle of the right hand side.

    You will see that R is a common which you will need to wire to the "A" side of 4 relays (you only need 4, not 5).

    Then wire the "B" side of relay 1 to "W1".
    Then wire the "B" side of relay 2 to "W2".
    Then wire the "B" side of relay 3 to "Y".
    Then wire the "B" side of relay 1 to "G".

    As far as I can tell you don't need to wire "C" to the cbus relay at all.

    Then, program the thermostat so that:
    - Fan is "G"
    - Cooling is "Y"
    - Heat stage 1 is "W1"
    - Heat stage 2 is "W2"

    This ***should*** do what you want.

    Be careful. Check everything. Including what I suggest above. If it all turns to poo don't blame me.
     
    ashleigh, Jul 29, 2010
    #5
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