5753 Multi Sensor - Sensitivity issue

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by vtsyrlin, May 9, 2016.

  1. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    HI All,

    I have a number of 5753 series sensors deployed in the various areas of the house that intended to control light sources at night.

    The problem is that sensor activates the attached light groups regardless of the ambient lighting. Regardless of how much I've tried adjusting the light level sensitivity I am unable to stop the sensor coming on during the day or coming on at all (if I turn the dial all the way clock wise)
    It seems that the ambient light sensor which is used to allow different
    behaviour between dark and light conditions isn't sensitive enough.

    Naturally I've tried adjusting the LUX level using the toolkit but to no avail. The sensor either doesn't come on at all at night (even with the lux level set to 10 or 15 LUX) or comes on all the time.

    I've measured the LUX level in the area multiple times, but seem to unable to control sensors behaviour properly. It is definitely not a faulty sensor as all 8 sensors behave in the similar manner.

    Is there "another" way of activating the sensors-controlled light groups only at night? (ie disabling sensors during the day and enabling the sensors at night or after say 6pm?)

    Is this the common flaw with these type of sensors?

    What am I doing wrong?

    Would appreciate any help as this is driving me mad. :eek:

    Regards
    Vlad
     
    vtsyrlin, May 9, 2016
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  2. vtsyrlin

    jboer

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    Heya,

    Would you be able to post a few screenshots of your toolkit screens for the sensors? Just to be able to get a full picture of what you have going on.
     
    jboer, May 9, 2016
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  3. vtsyrlin

    qun

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    Hi vtsyrlin,
    Do you know the firmware version of those sensors? When you post screenshots, please include Global, Light Level, Occupancy and Blocks tab.
     
    qun, May 10, 2016
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  4. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    Hi guys.
    Much appreciate you looking at them. Here are the screenshots.
     
    vtsyrlin, May 10, 2016
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  5. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    vtsyrlin, May 10, 2016
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  6. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    An interesting point to note:
    Under "Global" tab, the potentiometer light measurement is 164 lux
    However under the "light" tab, the ambient light always shows as 0 lux regardless of how many times I refresh the reading.

    Not sure if it's relevant, but I'd point out anyways.
     

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    vtsyrlin, May 10, 2016
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  7. vtsyrlin

    NickD Moderator

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    The Global tab shows that the potentiometer is unused, ie it is not controling anything. The 164 just shows the current position of the pot.

    The way it is set up, it will turn the group ON whenever motion is detected and the light level is below the threshold.

    The threshold is set at 140lux, and the sensor currently thinks the lux level is 0.

    Does the reported lux level change if you shine a torch into the sensor?

    Nick
     
    NickD, May 11, 2016
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  8. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    Hi Nick,

    I've disabled the potentiometer A on earlier advise in an attempt to get the sensor working properly.

    The intended behavior is to have sensor trigger the assigned group at night when the motion is detected. Currently the sensor triggers the assigned group regardless of the day/night or lux level. I will do the "torch" test this avo and report back. (there are 8 identical sensor here and most (if not all) reporting 0 lux at the light level tab)

    Thanks
     
    vtsyrlin, May 11, 2016
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  9. vtsyrlin

    qun

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    Hi vtsyrlin,
    If the ambient light always shows as 0 lux during the day, this sensor properly has light level calibration issue.
    Please reset the sensor, and check the ambient lux on Light Level tab, if it still shows 0 lux, then replace it.
    Alternative way: because of this sensor still works during the day and night, if this site has a Touch Screen, PAC or Wiser, without replace the sensor, set two schedules to enable/disable the sensor at Sunset/Sunrise.
     
    qun, May 11, 2016
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  10. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    thanks qun for your response.
    Is there a physical way to reset the sensor or simply via the toolkit? (I've already reset the sensor via the toolkit).

    Also, is there a particular method of calibrating the sensor?
    Should I keep the potentiometer A unused?

    This inability to simply change the trigger behavior during the day is hard to believe as this is the most basic function of these sensors. :eek:

    The site has both - touch screen and wiser mk2. So I'll add to the existing wiser project the two schedules you've mentioned in your response.

    ta
     
    vtsyrlin, May 11, 2016
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  11. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    Hi Nick,

    Shining a torch directly at the sensor does change the lux reading. See below.
    So the question becomes, why is the value being ignored and sensor triggers the light group regardless of the day or night setting?
     
    vtsyrlin, May 11, 2016
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  12. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    What I've also noticed that without shining a torch, the Light reading reads as zero lux, while potentiometer reads as 160 lux.
    Why is there a difference between the two?
     
    vtsyrlin, May 11, 2016
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  13. vtsyrlin

    NickD Moderator

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    Ok... at least your light level sensor is functioning.

    If however under normal conditions, the unit is reading 0 lux, then this means the unit always thinks it's dark, and will always be performing the Motion in Dark function.

    They are different things.. one is the current reading from the light level sensor and the other is the pot position, which (from memory) modifies the dark threshold... sorry.. it's been a long time since I played with one.

    If you shine the torch on it (and make it read 500+ lux), does it trigger or not? It shouldn't, as this would be exceeding the current light level threshold (140 lux).

    Nick
     
    NickD, May 11, 2016
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  14. vtsyrlin

    Ashley

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    Because the sensor points towards the ground and the light sensor has a narrow angle it only looks at a small part of the floor. Thus if the floor is not shiny or a dark colour, it won't reflect much light and under read the actual ambient light conditions. In my experience, the sensor will get down to 0 lux when the ambient light is still around 30-40 lux, which is still quite light. Thus you will never get it to trigger just at very low light levels.

    To set the trigger level, you use a combination of the light level target on the light level tab and a pot set to light level and sunset adjust. The pot will then vary the trigger point from 0 lux when fully anti-clockwise, to the set light level target when fully clockwise. I generally start with the light level target set to around 40 lux which gives the pot a reasonable resolution. Note that the value beside the pot is telling you the position of the pot where 0 is fully anti-clockwise and 255 if fully clockwise. It is not telling you anything about the current light level. The set point is given by light level target * pot position / 255

    To set it up, have toolkit running and check the refresh tab on the ambient light box. Then darken the room and slowly add lighting until the lux level rises. You will see how much light you need to get it off the 0 lux level. Then set the pot to around that value. i.e. if the light target is set to 40 and you want it to trigger at 10 lux set the pot at a quarter way around. Set a timeout of a couple of seconds then adjust the ambient lighting while walking around. It will work and trigger at the set value :)

    The other trick is to set up another light as an 'any motion' that is far enough away not to upset the sensor but you can still see as you walk around. This will show you when the sensor swaps between day and night light levels. You will notice that this can happen as you walk under the sensor as you aren't very reflective and the light level will usually drop. You will have to take this into account.

    If you follow all this and do it methodically it will work. Just don't expect to get it to trigger at very low ambient light levels because it just doesn't work that way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2016
    Ashley, May 11, 2016
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  15. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    thanks Ashley. Your explanation is now making a complete sense!:D
    Previously, I didn't understand the link between the light level target and the pot set.

    I think I realise now why the ambient light reading is zero for most sensor on site --- the floor here is almost black and the sensor are in the ceiling pointing directly at the floor. I do however have a sensor that's directed horizontally across so it reads ambient light properly,.

    The question is: Am I able to control the original sensor's day/night motion by using light level target from another sensor?

    eg. When the 2nd sensor light level target drops to the predefined lux level and the initial sensor detects motion, can I turn on the lighting group assigned to the initial sensor?

    In other words, can I enable the original sensor when the light level target on the 2nd sensor reaches predefined threshold?
     
    vtsyrlin, May 12, 2016
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  16. vtsyrlin

    NickD Moderator

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    No.. the closest thing would be to have another sensor's light level setting enable or disable this sensor.

    When the sensor does trigger, does the light that it turns on raise the light level seen by the sensor? If so, what is the reading then?

    Nick
     
    NickD, May 12, 2016
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  17. vtsyrlin

    qun

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    Hi vtsyrlin,
    There is no physical way to reset the sensor, has to via Toolkit.
    Also there is no any method of calibrating the sensor, it has to be done via the production line or Repair section.

    You can set the Pot A unused, but ensure the Pot position reading is not 0 lux or 255 lux.

    The threshold is set at 140lux, and the sensor currently thinks the lux level is 0. That means the sensor is in the dark situation (night), so the sensor is always working.

    Assign an enable/disable group on the Occupancy tab, set two schedules to enable sensor during the night time, disable it during the day time.
     
    qun, May 12, 2016
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  18. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    Hi Nick,

    Your suggestion would definitely work. Do you need logic to have another sensor light level setting enable or disable this sensor or can this be done via the tool-kit? If so, I would really appreciate couple of pointers.

    When the sensor does trigger, the light level seen by the sensor doesn't rise as it triggers few LED lights that quite far from the actual sensor.
     
    vtsyrlin, May 12, 2016
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  19. vtsyrlin

    vtsyrlin

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    Could anyone please explain how to action Nick's suggestion?
     
    vtsyrlin, May 13, 2016
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  20. vtsyrlin

    Ashley

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    Create a new ga called say "Sensor Enable". On your ambient light sensor set this ga for the Sunset function. On the sensor you want to control, on the Occupancy tab, set this ga in the Enable/Disable group and check 'enables'.
     
    Ashley, May 13, 2016
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