5502CDGP230 Dali Fitting issues.

Discussion in 'DALI Software' started by Weedo, Apr 3, 2024.

  1. Weedo

    Weedo

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    Hi All,

    Just reaching out to see if anyone else has experienced a similar issue with the new Dali Gateway.

    I have residence with 30+ fittings that I've configured using Rapix and Cbus commissioner.
    of the these fitting there is 5 units that exhibit the following behavior. No other fitting have an issue.

    Drivers are TCI 127492
    1. Lights are addressed using the Cbus Commissioner Application. (also addressed using Rapix software to eliminate software as the issue).
    2. Lights all respond to switching operations and dimming operations flawlessly.
    3. After around 15-20 minutes after addressing, the fittings no longer respond to any commands switching or dimming.
    4. At random intervals the fitting may come back online but flickering is a common occurrence. (Flickering indicates to me a possible incompatibility between the LED chipset and the Driver)
    5. To get full control back over the lights the Controller Broadcast function is used. This appears to wake the units up or reset them allowing the units to be used again for approximately 15 minutes.
    6. Lights return to not operating. This cycle continues indefinitely.
    I have spoken to both the manufacture and SE now and got the obligatory finger pointing.
    I've been using Dali for year and the basic debugging has been done.

    As the gateway is new and the software equally so, I'm less inclined to state it isn't these elements.

    I guess I'm just putting this out there in the hope someone else spots something I'm missing, or if this is occurring in other installs people don't feel too isolated.

    Any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
     
    Weedo, Apr 3, 2024
    #1
  2. Weedo

    Wonkey

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    Have you physically swapped a faulty unit and good ones location to confirm it not a wiring issue
     
    Wonkey, Apr 3, 2024
    #2
  3. Weedo

    Memphix

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    Are the DALI drivers reporting any errors when inspected with Rapix or Masterconfigurator?
     
    Memphix, Apr 18, 2024
    #3
  4. Weedo

    ashleigh Moderator

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    I'd suggest the following steps:

    1. Go to 2 fittings, one that works OK, and 1 that does not.
    2. Swap the DRIVERS ONLY.
    3. After the physical swap, then swap their short addresses, so they are set for the right address in the right place. I also suggest you do this using RAPIX in order to eliminate any other possible thing going on. Make sure the C-Bus gateway is DISCONNECTED when you do that.
    (why all this fuss? You want to change ONE THING ONLY)

    What happens?

    If the problem stays at the lamp -> its a driver / lamp problem (driver not working happily with the lamp).

    If the problem MOVES with the driver -> the driver is probably dodgy.

    As the number of DALI drivers in the world has increased and prices have come down, so has quality. Bad drivers are certainly a known thing. This is not to say it's a bad driver - TCI are well known and generally well respected, but this does not make them perfect.

    On the score of "If you had to recommend a DALI driver, which manufacturer would you recommend?" The answers is NONE OF THEM - because I just don't know. The only ones I recommend are our own, and we sell only through some very specialised channels - so I can't sell to anyone who wants one.

    Disclaimer: Have a lot to do with RAPIX these days.
     
    ashleigh, Apr 21, 2024
    #4
  5. Weedo

    Weedo

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    Hi All,

    Just circling back to complete this thread.

    I have fortunately resolved the issue now and the short answer is... I don't have a definitive answer.

    I returned to site to find the same issues continuing and a new issue had been introduced. A switch dedicated to switching the toilet lights was now able to control the five Dali fittings. This is the most odd behavior I've seen as the switch was set to the lighting application and Dali wasn't the secondary application.

    Luckily, there was both an update to Space logics Commission and the Dali gateway available by the time I revisited. After updating all equipment, I factory reset and redeployed the five fittings of concern and haven't had an issue following. Ramping is also noticeably better.

    I checked the changelogs and nothing is mentioned about a fix for such a problem so perhaps I was just unlucky.

    Speaking with tech support a few items I noted we could use for debugging were:
    • Ability to set the Dali type manually. I see the value in auto detection, however I can see the possibility of the gateway miss categorizing a device and therefore sending incorrect Dali telegrams.
    • Ability to turn on/off the Dali communications lockout. When a device hasn't responded for a specific time, the gateway will stop attempting to communicate with the device. This may be useful to keep the gateway processing utilization low, in some cases it can make the debugging and overall experience worse.

    In summary, I believe there was an issue with the firmware or C-gate 3, or both. For the switch input to begin controlling a random load I believe this has to be C-Gate related.

    If you are working with space logics and specifically the Dali gateway I think sound advice is to ensure the latest available firmware and software is utilized.


    @ashleigh, Noted on the Rapix comment, I have been working with it for years and find it excellent.

    Brent
     
    Weedo, Jun 24, 2024
    #5
  6. Weedo

    NickD Moderator

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    A few comments on this as the guy who writes the firmware..

    This is second report I've heard recently of issues with TCI fittings. The ones I've had the opportunity to look at behaved themselves and pass all the tests on the DALI tester but we're still looking into it.

    There were no changes in the firmware of the gateway that would explain this. There was a firmware update which did slighting change the way ramping was handled which fixed a few issues. I think there is something else going on.

    All DALI control gear responds to the same basic DALI commands the same way. Changing the DALI type wouldn't make any difference to the way they are controlled with the current firmware, only configuration options.

    I think this is a misunderstanding. If a device doesn't respond to a certain number of consecutive commands it is marked as missing, and will show up as an error, but this doesn't change anything in relation to how it is controlled.

    C-Gate has no impact on the way the switch controls the lights other than setting configuration. For the wrong DALI devices to respond to the switch, the only possibilities are that the addressing on the DALI commands was interpreted incorrectly by the DALI devices or the DALI devices' programming became corrupted (given it seems to have resolved itself the latter seems unlikely).
    You mentioned the DALI application and the fact the switch isn't using it... can you elaborate on this? What application(s) are you using the DALI Gateway and what is in the switch that ended up controlling the wrong lights?

    Nick
     
    NickD, Jul 5, 2024
    #6
  7. Weedo

    ashleigh Moderator

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    A small followup.

    There are some drivers I have come across that "go mad". In some cases we have had samples of these on test for months, and they work fine. It's only when installed in a project/job site that they play up.

    The definition of "go mad" varies depending on the driver. We have seen what seems to be microphonics (sensitivity to vibration), possibility of metallurgical problems in connectors, poor firmware that does not properly handle certain command combinations, and on and on and on.

    Regarding command combinations: We have had a few cases that have been reported to DALI Alliance, where they have been able to improve the official test sequences.

    Some of the other problems, though: we still don't have a definitive answer and there is only so long you can spend looking at someone else's product before needing to pull the pin.

    I'd therefore suggest my "swap the drivers" approach if this comes back. If you swap the drivers, and the fault follows the driver, then stop messing about and send the driver back. It's then up to the manufacturer to deal with it. There are mandatory warranty periods in Australia - use them.

    As I've pointed out before, with the endless rush to make DALI drivers cheaper, corners will be cut. Sometimes you will be the victim of this.
     
    ashleigh, Jul 7, 2024
    #7
    DarylMc likes this.
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