12 Channel not working

Hi guys. Out of the blue, 9 channels out of the 10 channels Ive got hooked up suddenly all turned on by themselves. I could not control them from my Saturn switches even tho it shows up blue when I press the button but no reaction to any of the lights. Ive reseted at the circuit breaker but no difference. I had to turn the channels off by selecting the buttons on the actual Relay Unit which the buttons were lit.
Trying different things using the Toolkit but no luck. If I set a channel to "ON" using the toolkit, I can see the led light change colour on my Saturn switches so there is communication between my switches right through to my network but no lights will turn on.
Ive had this all hooked up for the past 4 years with no issues.
I have 4 x 12 Channels, 2 x Dimmers, a few PIRs.
I know I have more than enough power to run the c-bus system but I am not electrically minded but do know my stuff with networking so If im missing any info that could help me, please just ask and ill try and find out.
Its just weird that the only controlable Channel on this 12 Channel is Channel 3
Please help!

 

Maybe i can give you a little share..
Please turn off the cbus power (power for device, not for channel relay)..
Or release the power also from unfunction channel, please do carefully.

Turn on again... And see the respons.
If still hang, please reset the relay..


Thanks

Rgds
Vincent

 

Turn off from the circuit breaker? Is that what you mean? I believe it's hard wired to the meter board

 

Turn it off, wait a few minutes and back on again.

Hi Klink
Yes, I believe Vincent means to isloate (eg via Circuit breaker) as you say you have already done. Ensure you turned all the units off so there is no c-bus power left on the bus.
It does sound odd, all the usual issues (burden, damaged cables, other physical intrusions) effect the communication on the bus so effectively nothing works. You say you have proved comms does work. I suspect it may be the relay unit itself as you say some channels work and others do not.

 

Ok. I'll try shutting down all 4 breakers first and see how that goes. Burden.......I'm not to across that. I can only control the lights from the the relay. I'll try and return all channels back c-bus network level using the local override buttons (just downloaded the installation instructions). I'll keep you posted. Cheers guys

 

I've done everything and no luck. Tried the override buttons. No luck. I think I even gave the whole thing a data reset by holding a override button for over 10s. Nothing worked. The unit led is flashing slowly since the issue began when I turn off the channels manually using the local override buttons. It's like it's stuck in override and unable to control it from either Saturn switch or toolkit. Any other ideas guys? Cheers

 

HI Klink

I agree with Mathew..
please make sure, there are no power through your device...
completely zero . live and ground also...

as you told that hardwire directly to your device, i think better you put circuit breaker for input and outgoing also, an safety step to protect your device.

as my experience before, there are no explain as technically about this procedure, but it works for me...
turn it on again, reset or re-tagging with different name, and back to original tagging or maybe you can change your application and back again..

please calm and do step by step properly.


rgds
vincent

 

Let me get this right. You guys suggest to pull the 240 cable out of the unit itself? Turning the breakers off is not enough?

 

Hi Klink,

From your mail I glean that you are not an Electrical Contractor or C-Bus installer, more an 'end user'/client.

I think Vincent is suggesting that the power into the relay switch elements may possibly come from a different source than the 'Module Power' in the top left corner, so one relay could be on the 'Lighting' breaker, another could be on a 'Pool' breaker and the module run from the 'C-Bus or Power' breaker etc.
Do not touch the actual 240VAC wiring yourself as it would be dangerous (and of course is prohibited in Australia), turning off the breaker for that unit is fine to reset the C-Bus logic.

1. When you hold any local toggle button for a few seconds, the Unit LED should stop flashing and go back to Full On. Does it? (this Disables local override - assume all channels may come back on)

2. Can you go into the module in Toolkit? (This proves C-Bus Comms to unit is OK) If so, go to the Status Tab and see if local override or Remote On, Remote Off have indicators against them. Are there any indicators here on?

If, (only if this is the case) with the Unit LED on Full (ie after Local Override is disabled ie #1) and if you have a 'Remote On' LED in status in Toolkit, try removing the one or two Pink RJ-45 cables from the relay unit. Be aware this will segment or shut down the rest of the C-Bus but will give you an answer. Did the relays switch Off?

Get back to us,

Kind Regards,

Brad

 

Just got off the phone with CIS technical support. He suggest to copy the addresses of the faulty channel to another working unit which if it works he said that proves the unit is faulty.

 

I have deticated breakers for the c-bus units. They completely turn off when breakers go off. im 100% confident about that.

Yes, it does that. All channels come back on but still not controllable from Toolkit or Saturn switches.

Yes, I can get into the module using the Toolkit and can ping as well. I can even disable the override local buttons which I tested succesfully. Status tab indicator always stays lit no matter what i do.

I havent tried that yet. Do I pull the pink cat 5 cable out while the modules have power?

Thanks guys for your help. I will give this a shot tonight.

 

Hi Klink,

The fact that you can open the module in Toolkit proves that the C-Bus logic is working (but still leaves a questions about the onboard relay drivers).

Sorry for the barrage of questions but it is hard when you are not sitting looking at all the indications simultaneously, so you ask questions to remove potential issues in your mind.

1. When in the module in Toolkit, are the group addresses (Light Circuit names etc) and module details (Project etc) all still as they were before? You are choosing the module from the 'Network' window and not the 'Database' windows aren't you?

2. So when in the status tab of the relay unit, were the 'Remote On Active', 'Remote Off Active' indicators lit? Please tell us that 'Remote On Active' is not lit. If it is, I use the 'remove the pink cables' to further diagnose cables vs module fault.

3. So you said the 'Local Toggle Active' stays lit in Toolkit status tab (use the 'Update Status' button at the bottom after touching/changing the modules buttons/mode), even when the unit light is full on, ie no longer flashing after pressing a local toggle button for a few seconds? If this is so, the module sounds faulty. Try pushing each local toggle button in turn and then holding in for a few seconds to go back to normal controlled mode. This will just clean out the local toggle switches and their sense logic in case it is in a strange logic state.


In Toolkit left hand tree menu, under the Project's name is a network that is active. It will say something like Network (254) -Local Network (State:Running). Click on this line and look at the right hand panel. It tells you the consumed power and power supply available and other items like the network impedance. Ensure current consumption is less than current supply? In the module status tab, what is the C-Bus network voltage?

Also, as a safety note, just be careful when thinking the 'circuit breaker turns off everything on the module' as this is very often not the case, particularly if the relays are 'Voltage Free' eg L5512RVF (Relay Voltage Free). Each individual 'switch' in the relay can be driven from a separate source circuit and your electrician could have used a 'spare' relay for controlling another circuit you know nothing about. Always assume all the relays 'switches' are live, even with the C-Bus channels lights out, as that is just the logic of the unit and power can still be present. Use a Neon Test Screwdriver in all screw terminal before every removing a unit. Neon Light comes on, its live!!!

If you choose to do it yourself on the 'Remote On Active' diagnosis(which I don't suggest at all - best get your sparky) Be very careful even if touching just the pink cables not to brush against any of the 240v cabling. Turn off the circuit breakers you know to be the right ones, remove the pinks and turn back on. Only ever use one hand working inside a panel so you don't make a circuit through yourself!! If all the relays in that module are still on, and Remote On Active light was off in status prior, you probably still have a fritzed module.

A final thing to try then would be to reset the module to defaults and reprogram it, but that can wait for another post.

Let us know and Regards,

Brad

 

Nothing seems to have changed. Looks all the same

Its stays lit no matter what i do but havent tried removing the pink cable yet to see what happens. i shall try that

Tried that last night. No change

if I remember correctly its sitting around 29.3v. All my other units are around the same.

I know I have definately dedicated breakers for my c-bus set-up. i was there with him the whole time and was across is. I did the data cabling side of things and set it up myself thanks to alot of reading

Thanks Brad for your time you put into writing that up. ill will have a shot at it either tonight or the weekend

 

Hi Klink,

Sounds like we are getting close to the diagnosis.

Before your post was talking about the 'Local Toggle Active' (I called it Local Override which may have confused things) ie and then said 'Status tab indicator always stays lit no matter what i do' so I assumed you were talking about the 'Local Toggle Active' light being on.

Your new post suggests that 'Remote On Active' light is on. The module is in 'Remote ON' mode. This means that the cause could be either a c-Bus cabling issue, or a fault within the module itself. To make the Remote On mode engage in a module, the Remote ON pins (PIN1 or PIN2) of the pink RJ-45 cable or within the socket (in the case of a module fault) is shorted to c-Bus negative (PIN3 or PIN 5).

The 'remove the Pink Cables procedure' I suggested before will tell you whether the fault is in the module or in the cable. If you remove the Pinks and 'Remote On' mode stays active after, then the module has a fault. If not it is the cable.

If it ends up being the inbound cable/s, and the short is in a place you can't get to and you don't use 'Remote On' mode as many people don't, you can just make/terminate the cable that only takes the four middle pins into the module, being the 4 c-Bus positive and negative pins only. This of course would be a temporary solution as you should track down the actual cable fault as it will be effecting the devices on both sides of that cable link and may be shorting other pins together or eg. may have wires exposed that are slowly corroding together etc. Put a cable tester on the link.

If it is in the module, it has been seen as a solder dag on the board, a fritzed insect or maybe just a dead module. Give it a good blow out with the power off (not too much spit please if you don't have compressed air ).

So we should have it down to the module or the cable later today when you get to it.

All the best,

Brad

 

After having a good old chat with Brad, I will try a couple of things over the weekend and post the results. Thanks brad for being so so helpful and taking the time to talk to me

 

I just tried what the help desk suggested to assign the address of one of the faulty channels to another module. Well.....that didn't work. What does that now tell me?

 

Hi Klink,

When you assigned the group address from one of the presumed faulty relay modules channels to the other working module, did the new relay channel not switch with the group address (or button on your wall switch)? That is very odd as that should have worked as CIS described.

To everyone watching, on discussing the issue earlier with Klink, I found the relay unit (when not in local toggle override) seems to be in a 'Remote On' like state, but the logic is not reporting 'Remote On Active' in Toolkit in the module config window from network, but it does update the 'local toggle active' if you use the local toggle buttons and go into and out of that local channel override mode. Local toggle buttons work fine on the relay channels. When the local toggle mode is turned off using the local 3 sec press, the relay turns all its channels on just like a Remote On. The switchplates are not showing the relay channels group addresses as active nor are the groups active in Lighting app under Toolkit.

All the other tab settings are nominal and there are no logic groups that are configured that switch more than several channels simultaneously so it doesn't look like errant logic groups.

I have Klink pulling out the pink cables tomorrow as a diag step as it may be in Remote On mode (from cable fault) but just not reporting it to Toolkit. I have suggested another FULL reset and reprogram from scratch after this test to properly reset all the registers, though Klink said he has done one already and re-populated from database.

I have seen similarly fritzed modules previously from power spikes/lightning etc but mostly the local toggle wasn't working and the logic was usually toasted which isn't the case here. The c-Bus interface seems working properly.

Does anyone else have any suggestions as to other tests that could/should be performed before it is diag'd as dead (other than those two suggested to Klink already) ?

Regards,

Brad

 

I tried turning light on and off using the toolkit and no go. Just to prove that method does work, I tried it with a working channel and and reassigned to another module and that worked fine. I'll ring help desk again and see what they say

 

Hiya Klink,

I know this is probably not what you want to hear but I think it might be time to bring in an expert to assess your network and situation and just resolve it.. For the amount of time you have put into this so far, a CBUS partner should be able to diagnose and rectify within an hour or 2..

Well worth the cost of the call out..

Cheers..

 

Hi Klink,

As per Roosta, probably getting close! I already have 'a case' with my name on it!!

Happy to visit you to resolve,

Brad