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  #1  
Old 26 Apr 05, 08:06 PM
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richy richy is offline
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Default Electric Roller Shutters

Hi all,

Whats the best way to control my Electric Roller Shutters.

I am assuming a Relay Module, with one "ch" for up and another for down.
or
is there a better way ??

My blinds are currently controlled via a (brace yourself, I'm gonna say a bad word) X10 blind controller. I am converting the control to C-bus, but C-bus dont have any dedicated part for controlling Blinds/Shutters etc...

Is anything being released for blind/curtain/shutter control soon ??

Viva le CIS...
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  #2  
Old 27 Apr 05, 02:43 PM
darrenblake darrenblake is offline
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Thumbs up Roller shutter control

Hi Richy,

For roller shutter control where you only need two positions (open or closed), the C-Bus changeover relay (L5504RVFC) works a dead set treat.
Very simple to cable and program, should get you out of trouble
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  #3  
Old 27 Apr 05, 04:29 PM
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eleroAustralia eleroAustralia is offline
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Default Motor requirements

Hi there,

we are (one of) the manufacturers of the roller shutter motors. One thing that is most often forgotten when interfacing these types of motors, besides the mentioned interlocking, is a 0.5 seconds delay between the up and down direction.
I.e. What happens if a timer sends the shutters down and the user presses the up button? If the motors reverse immediately, without delay, a damaged motor is not a question of if, but when.

The following tread should be of interest to you, it goes quite into detail in this matter:
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97

Have especially a look at:
Post 29 and 31: (From "Guru", Clipsal Technical support Sydney)
and
Post 32: I posted there some additional information regarding this topic

I also did attach a manual for our motors. I am sure the manual for your shutter motors looks very similar (Becuase it does NOT show a switchover relay, but actually a switch with intermediate position, there is no such relay available. If there is such a beast out there (, in one relay!), let me know I am looking for that!)
Attached Images
File Type: pdf T8-15 motor connection diagram.pdf (42.4 KB, 940 views)
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Affordable German Quality Sun shade and shutter motors and controls since 1964
Send a "private Message" if you have other questions than this tread
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  #4  
Old 27 Apr 05, 08:14 PM
pbelectrical pbelectrical is offline
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Default New Relay Please

It seems to me that clipsal could make life a lot simpler for us poor installers if they were to design a new relay in which each channel had two on positions and an intermediate off position with a software programmable delay between the activation of the on outputs. The problem with the changeover relay is that one or other of the outputs is always on and to achieve up down control of a set of blinds it requires 2 channels to get the desired operation, now it doesnt take many blinds to burn some serious money and switchboard space. I have been working around this problem by using 12 ch relays , one channel for up and one for down, wired through standard type relays (non c-bus) to provide intelocking but the changover delay is still a worry. I'm yet to play with the new PICED software and I am led to beleive the logic engine and/or scene control will allow me to overcome this, but it is not every installation that includes a touch screen. Sorry to be long winded but this keeps popping up as a recurring problem, and after all control of blinds seems to impress the pants of my customers.
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  #5  
Old 28 Apr 05, 08:43 AM
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znelbok znelbok is offline
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Default

So here is my stupid question

I am getting close to building and want to lay the power cables for the curtains.

i spoke to a local mob who "specialise" in this area and got no real help. All I wanted to know is what cabling was required.

Basically I like tot look of the elero 2 way reg. Makes intergrating to C-bus easy The cable shown has 2 x brown/black, a blue and earth, which if I remember correctly the colours for a flexible cable.

So what cable is best to use.

Mick
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  #6  
Old 28 Apr 05, 11:08 AM
Frank Mc Alinden Frank Mc Alinden is offline
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Default

Hi Mick
Basically I like tot look of the elero 2 way reg. Makes intergrating to C-bus easy The cable shown has 2 x brown/black, a blue and earth, which if I remember correctly the colours for a flexible cable.

So what cable is best to use.


assuming 2 x brown / black means it has a brown and black wire and not 2 browns and 2 blacks , you could use a twin + e plus a single active sdi cable..

HTH
Frank
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  #7  
Old 28 Apr 05, 11:49 AM
ashleigh ashleigh is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbelectrical
It seems to me that clipsal could make life a lot simpler for us poor installers if they were to design a new relay in which each channel had two on positions and an intermediate off position with a software programmable delay between the activation of the on outputs.
This is known and being considered. Like all things, it needs available staff, and time. Dont ask when.
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  #8  
Old 28 Apr 05, 06:21 PM
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eleroAustralia eleroAustralia is offline
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Lightbulb Wiring requirements

Quote:
Originally Posted by znelbok
So here is my stupid question

I am getting close to building and want to lay the power cables for the curtains.

i spoke to a local mob who "specialise" in this area and got no real help. All I wanted to know is what cabling was required.

Basically I like tot look of the elero 2 way reg. Makes intergrating to C-bus easy The cable shown has 2 x brown/black, a blue and earth, which if I remember correctly the colours for a flexible cable.

So what cable is best to use.

Mick
Not such a stupid question:

First you need to find out what type of motor you have.
Tubular motors (which is the correct term) used for Roller shutters, Roller blinds, Venetian blinds, Awnings, Projector screens are usually 240 V motors. In some rare cases or small Venetian blinds, Shutters and blind you might stumble over DC motors. (See below in Curtain motors for more details for those)

Curtain motors come in all kind of versions, see below for more details



Tubular motor to controller wiring requirements (also see attachment)
Our elero tubular motors (and those of most manufacturers around, i.e Somfy, Becker, Simu, Jolly, etc) take 240 V and about 0.7 - 1.9 Ampere (startup 1.3 - 2 x more, also depending on size) and come with a 0.75 mm square core cable.

When wiring, keep in mind that the curtains/ blinds/ motors needs sometimes servicing/ cleaning and a plug beween Motor and lead to controller is highly recommended (In Europe this is common practise. We have available 4-pole plugs which are just 14mm square for internal or IP 54 rated plugs for external application)

From the Plug/ Junction box a 240 V 4-core (Color coded: 1x Brown (Life Up or Down), 1x Black (Life Down or Up), 1x Blue (Neutral) and 1x Yellow/ Green (Earth) , mostly 1.5mm square (per core) cable is used to run it to the location of the control box (which could be right next to the blind but also only back where the Circuit breakers/ C-bus system components sit)

If you have to run more than 1 motor in a group DO NOT connect the up and down (Black and Brown) wire in parallel, this will destroy the motors (There is a capacitor inside between up and down wire). There are group controllers or isolating relays available. Only very few motors have electronic insides which allow for parallel wiring.

If you are using a interface from elero:
Connect the 4-core wire to i.e. the 2-way REG unit (which is able to control 2 motors as a group)
Provide a 3-core power supply (240 V) to REG unit.
Link 2-way REG unit (low voltage inputs) to C-bus relay contacts (1 contact for up 1 contact for down.
Best suited is a shielded cable with 0.6 - 0.8mm diameter (Which will yield distances up to 250m without problem).
Cat 5 cable can be used, but maximum wiring lenght will be reduced.
Unshielded cable is not recommend, if it is used, use it only for very short distances.

On our controller you do not need to worry about interlocking on C-bus side. Both channels ON at the same time will simply issue a STOP command. (Which can be used as a feature STOP button)
To save C-bus relays you can even link unlimited numbers of 2-way REG via the low voltage inputs or via a included flat link cable that can easily link REG controllers that are located next to each other on the DIN rail.
Obviously the motors will always run together.
The REG unit has 2 Inputs. 1 Input could be used for C-bus integration and run i.e. 10 blinds always together, the other input could be used to run only 2 motors (or only connect 1 motor to the controller) via 2 ordinary push buttons (1x up, 1x down) hardwired to the controller.
This is a very interesting solution if i.e. the controller is located nearby the blind: you can use a standard switch instead of a C-bus switch. Since usually a C-bus switch nearby the window has very little use for anything else but the blinds.


If you connect the motors straight to the C-bus relays:
You will still need a 4-core wire (240 V) from Motor to Controller. For more details on connection to C-bus relay, please follow manual as per post 29 and 31 in this tread:
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97



For Curtain motors there are equally DC or AC around:
Both have quite different requirements.

A standard DC motor (We no longer manufactur them. I give here what is my experience. For final wiring check with your supplier/ manufacturer!) is usually just having 2 DC wires (12-24V) to a transformer box somewhere else.
Not all have an option to interface to C-bus. If they do, it usually is by low voltage switch wire (3-core: 1x common, 1 open, 1x close)

A AC Motor (i.e. Wohntex/ Bautex/ BTX and all their Chinese copies from Oslo, Shading systems, Windoware, etc) use the same cabling as a AC Tubular motor (Shutter and roller blind motor), which is a 4-core 240V wire (1x Brown and 1x Black for 240 Life switching (Open and Close), Blue (Neutral) and Earth.
These motors have the same requirements as tubular motors (Roller shutter, roller blind, Awning motors etc.)

A special case is the Silent Gliss curtain motor which is also a 240 V motor, which allows switching via 240 Volt (but not as expected!) or Low voltage.
240 Volt switching: 1x Life supply, 1x Neutral Supply, 1x Life/ Neutral (for open/ close, Neutral will run in one direction, life in the other) and 1x Earth (This setup screams for trouble if not done 100%. Not even Silent Gliss likes to control their motors that way)
Low Voltage switching: 240 V Power supply (1x Life, 1x Neutral and 1x Earth) + 3-core low voltage switch wire (By RJ11 plug, usually by 4-core flat phone cable)



Ups, now its gotten real long here, and still going.
Hope this helps someone out there :-)


Descriptions to Attachments:
2-way connection.pdf
Connection example of 2-way REG unit showing most options. Please note: Usually only low voltage terminals 1,2 and 3 OR 4, 5 and 7 are used for C-bus integration.

2-way reg to 2-w motor controller.pdf
Showing of an example of controlling 3 motors using an isolating relais between 2 motors connected to the same output of the REG output


So now I am finished, and I am out of the office for today ;-)
Attached Images
File Type: pdf 2-way connection.pdf (105.7 KB, 549 views)
File Type: pdf 2-w reg to 2-w motor controller.pdf (170.3 KB, 520 views)
__________________
Markus Werner, elero GmbH, Germany
Affordable German Quality Sun shade and shutter motors and controls since 1964
Send a "private Message" if you have other questions than this tread

Last edited by eleroAustralia; 09 Aug 07 at 02:09 PM.
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  #9  
Old 28 Apr 05, 06:34 PM
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eleroAustralia eleroAustralia is offline
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Cool Not so much different

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbelectrical
It seems to me that clipsal could make life a lot simpler for us poor installers if they were to design a new relay in which each channel had two on positions and an intermediate off position with a software programmable delay between the activation of the on outputs. The problem with the changeover relay is that one or other of the outputs is always on and to achieve up down control of a set of blinds it requires 2 channels to get the desired operation, now it doesnt take many blinds to burn some serious money and switchboard space. I have been working around this problem by using 12 ch relays , one channel for up and one for down
Even in Europe where there are Special Blind controllers available for the major other Building systems like EIB, KNX, LON, MAG, etc usually a 8-channel light controller still becomes a 4 motor controller if it is used for motors.
So, Clipsal is not real different here.
But maybe they can use their link to Schneider a bit more and simply have a "Plug-In" for controlling motors with current relais and Software ;-)
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Markus Werner, elero GmbH, Germany
Affordable German Quality Sun shade and shutter motors and controls since 1964
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  #10  
Old 28 Apr 05, 06:57 PM
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Bullpit Bullpit is offline
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Default Electric Roller Shutters

Hi,
Depending on motor requirements and the possibility of load requiring seperate 3rd party relay, all my curtain and shutter controls are achieved by allowing a relay chan. for each direction, input with a Neo, Interlocking via software, (so no chance of powering up and down at same time) and using Global timing parameters to achieve delay in direction change.
Tie in the open and close switches with tick boxes under Blocks, then use Key Functions Tab to set the sequence of Off Key, Idle, Recall1, Start (for Open) Off Key, Idle, Recall2, Start (for Close). Setting recall percentages to 100 and 0, then 0 and 100 for opposite key. Input appropriate timer value, slightly exceeding time required to reach end (and limit switch).
Functions are then press/release to close fully, press/release opposite key to open fully, or - Hold key to reach desired position then release and press/release again to stop, or - press to fully close (or open) press/release again at any time to stop in early position. Anytime the sequence is interupted C-bus simply times out. The Off key setting at the beginning means the first function is Off, helping to avoid "dual messaging".
Attached pics may help explain.....hope this helps someone....
Cheers, Bullpit

(Not applicable to Every Motorised system but does a lot !)
Little Neo remote makes a real nice addition to above system too !!
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Last edited by Bullpit; 28 Apr 05 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Additional info
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