Alternative Lower Cost Touch Screen PC's?

[daky]

Hi

Any suggestions about available color touch screen PC based systems (10" - 15") for use with Cbus applications. Preferably with low power consumption, LAN (Wifi if possible) several Usb ports and Rs232, built-in speakers, mic and Camera?

[filpee]

Wall mount an Asus EeeTop PC ET2203T

[NickLocke]

Have a look at post number 16 in this thread (http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4362&page=2) to see the way I jumped.

It works very well and I was very impressed with the support offered by the Wordsworth guys.

[daky]

Thanks Guys

Will investigate the Asus EeeTop and Wordsworth options.

I have used Panel PC's from Advantech for Scada based systems with no problems and support is very good. Their Panel PC's prices have been expensive in the past, but they have come down considerably - certainly a lot cheaper that the Color Touch options. I think the 15" screen size is now about 1/2 the cost of a color touch option and looks really great.

I have also noticed but not used the iEi Panel PC's from soanar ($1700 for 15") which may also be worth investigating. (anyone used these?)

The Color Touch Screens don't seem to have value for the money and you can't run other applications. I have a number of projects comming up that require Energy Monitoring and Video for security so the panel PC looks the way to go. There are a number of products around for video, but a good energy monitoring solution is hard to find. I have been looking into a new cbus energy monitoring system from synctek in melbourne which should be available soon and their system can be run from a panel pc on windows XP. I'm finding a lot of customers now want energy monitoring and video security to be available on their touch screens.

Panel PC solutions running windows seems the best way to go these days as we are finding that customers want to add more and more functionality to the home automation systems - and homegate is simply not designed to accomplish all this by itself so you need to able to integrate other applications to do all this stuff.

[Colin Smith]

Acer Aspire 1820PT 11.6" 2GB 250GB - Win 7 HP - Touch
Acer All-in-One Multi-Touch Z5610

The POS 660 Series http://www.flytech.com/pddetail.php?cid=4&id=19 Comes without the card swipe!

http://www.ili.co.nz/ They have controlled C-bus via interface. (Tell them I set you! :))
Colin Smith
1 Touch Automation

[NickLocke]

I guess the new touch facilities in Windows 7 may change the PC landscape a little - controlling CBus using "surface" anyone?

As has been said on here before, I think the C-Touch vs PC debate is to a large extent driven by how much support you will need to (or are prepared to) provide to your customer going forward.

I have all sort of extra applications running in my panel PC - and have some fairly complex stuff in Homegate too (eg the Squeezebox controller mentioned somewhere on another thread in here).

BUT if the installation was in my IT-illiterate mother's house it would probably be a C-Touch. Worse, if it was my mother-in-law - she believes herself to be PC-capable, so definitely either a C-Touch or a very expensive support agreement!

[cbuster]

I have similar Inlaws - the support is terrible!

I have successfully used Panel PC's on a number of occasions without much trouble or support required. The major problem with windows based Home Automation systems (whether Panel PC or not) is allowing access to the internet - this is where major problems can occur?
I do not allow automatic windows updates and disable programs that access the internet to download updates etc -- they can cause problems and microsoft updates can be a big pain?

In installations where the customer wants internet access then I specifically state that any call out support is subject to additional service chargers.

However I agree that access to other applications, including the internet is a must these days - everybody wants it!

[DDirk]

I use 3M touchscreens and would also like to use homegate with other apps on my projects, but as you say it doesn't allow this integration and if it did
I would also use the C-touch if it was all locked down.
Imagine a home with say 3 or 4 C-touch units and you can not use the screens for security monitoring expensive machine that does very little.

DDirk

[ashleigh]

So how do you guys handle things like automatic brightness control on these other screens?

[NickD]

I'm finding a lot of customers now want energy monitoring and video security to be available on their touch screens.


Can you elaborate on what your customers are wanting in the way of energy monitoring?

Nick

[daky]

Nick - Can you elaborate on what your customers are wanting in the way of energy monitoring?


in the past 12 months probably had over a dozen serious enquiries for energy metering to be shown on touch screens. I think this would be larger if I had something to offer, some sort of definite solution that customers can take up - if I had it I could sell it!

I have installed a number of these clip-on centa-meter devices but most customers have not been impressed because they dont appear to be accurate enough and dont provide graphical display of energy use and they look really cheap like a kitchen timer. Over a few days/weeks the accuracy starts falling off - I think its because they dont take into account line voltage changes and the errors pile after a while.

If a customer is willing to spend $15,000+ an C-Bus Home Automation system then they want something good not a cheap looking add-on, most want some sort of graphical display that shows energy use over time that they can relate to billing and also to see what appliances are the major uses for their situation. So definitely there is a need for a multiple circuit energy monitoring system that can be seperated out for lighting, power, air conditioning etc.

I mainly do units and appartments and the builders are also asking for energy metering to offer customers when they sell off the plan with a cbus home automation systems - video security and theatre control is another popular ask.

The only energy monitoring system that I have seen so far that can probably do these things with C-Bus is a new energy meter from syntek, but its not quite ready yet.

[cbuster]

So how do you guys handle things like automatic brightness control on these other screens?

Most screen drivers have brightness control and once setup for the application there is really no need for auto brightness, I normall set screen saver to 30 minutes if needed.

[Darren]

in the past 12 months probably had over a dozen serious enquiries for energy metering to be shown on touch screens. I think this would be larger if I had something to offer, some sort of definite solution that customers can take up - if I had it I could sell it!
Graphing energy usage is very easy:
1. Get hold of a current clamp or other sensor with an analogue output
2. Connect the output to a General Input Unit set to broadcast the data on the Measurement Application
3. Use Colour C-Touch to plot the measured data

[daky]

Originally Posted by Daren: Graphing energy usage is very easy:
1. Get hold of a current clamp or other sensor with an analogue output
2. Connect the output to a General Input Unit set to broadcast the data on the Measurement Application
3. Use Colour C-Touch to plot the measured data

Graphing Current is not an energy measurement you would need a propper energy transducer to measure energy. I doubt that feeding energy as an analogue signal (if one was available) would work as the range is limited, feeding a power transducer signal may work if the colour c-touch could integrate it over time?

Then again I don't think the colour c-touch or homegate has the ability to store and recall the energy signal over different time periods and to display what energy was used last month etc?

I am not sure if the colour C-touch or homegate can store and accumulate an energy signal - is that possible?

[Darren]

Graphing Current is not an energy measurement you would need a propper energy transducer to measure energy.
You are quite right. I am so used to people saying "energy" when they actually mean power/current, I assumed you meant the same.

I doubt that feeding energy as an analogue signal (if one was available) would work as the range is limited
No, it would not work all that well.

...feeding a power transducer signal may work if the colour c-touch could integrate it over time?

Then again I don't think the colour c-touch or homegate has the ability to store and recall the energy signal over different time periods and to display what energy was used last month etc?

I am not sure if the colour C-touch or homegate can store and accumulate an energy signal - is that possible?
It would be very easy to write some logic code to integrate the power over time and store it in a user system IO variable for display. Using a User System IO variable would also mean that it gets stored in the project file and will not be lost if there is a power failure.

Doing things this way would be less accurate than using a proper energy meter (particularly if your current meter is not true RMS or if your voltage deviates much form nominal), but it should be more than good enough for the purposes of looking at trends.

[petra]

Originally Posted by Darren : It would be very easy to write some logic code to integrate the power over time and store it in a user system IO variable for display. Using a User System IO variable would also mean that it gets stored in the project file and will not be lost if there is a power failure.

Doing things this way would be less accurate than using a proper energy meter (particularly if your current meter is not true RMS or if your voltage deviates much form nominal), but it should be more than good enough for the purposes of looking at trends.

Darren, are system IO variables set to specific data types ( eg floating point values) and can they be set up as large arrays to store power or energy data from energy meters at particular times?

And then recall and display the array data as a graph plot ?

maybe this could be used as an energy meter for homegate displays - but then again maybe too much work/trouble - it would probably be more cost effective to use a dedicated energy meter system like daky says?

[PGOLD]

I don't think homegate can do arrays.
Better off saving the energy meter data in some sort of file or data base?

[NickD]

I don't think homegate can do arrays.
Better off saving the energy meter data in some sort of file or data base?
Homegate includes the logic engine, so you can do arrays to your hearts content.. You can manipulate any of the data that you have acquired to suit whatever form of display you like.

You can get the data either from readings coming in on the bus on the Measurement Application, or from an external device (eg on a serial or ethernet connection).

Graphing Current is not an energy measurement you would need a propper energy transducer to measure energy
When you say you want to graph energy.. you mean kWh.. so obviously this is just going to keep going up and up.... how would you want this presented to the user?

Would you want it to accumulate for a day and then reset to zero? Maybe have some historical data like the daily usage for the past week?

Nick

[Darren]

Darren, are system IO variables set to specific data types ( eg floating point values)
Yes.

and can they be set up as large arrays to store power or energy data from energy meters at particular times?
They are not really designed for that. As Nick said, you can do arrays in logic then save the data to a file if you need.

[muppets]

The best option would be to have a real time kWh measurement (obviously take the current reading and multiply it out to the hour) and a running total for both the day and then the week.

Similar to the car fuel usage panels etc.

You could even have a forcast of monthly or quartely usage - and if there was an input in the cbus piced setup we could put in the c/kWh and then it could even forcast the bill given it would know the past, present and guage for future usage.

Sound like a bit of work but heh - given people are looking at using new plaforms that Clipsal wouldn't profit from surely someone could be given the task to promote advances in their product.

[PGOLD]

Hi muppets,

The best option would be to have a real time kWh measurement (obviously take the current reading and multiply it out to the hour) and a running total for both the day and then the week.


If you multiply current with time you don't get energy (KWH) rather you get KAH - you would need to multiply with the voltage as well but then you need to take into account the phase difference between voltage and currents?
This method does sound like a lot of work and even after doing all that you won't know how accurate your measurement is and have still have to find a presentable means to display that information for the user?

Sound like a bit of work but heh - given people are looking at using new plaforms that Clipsal wouldn't profit from surely someone could be given the task to promote advances in their product.

This issue has been discussed in another forum at http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5533
I dont think that clipsal have an energy meter that will do the job but
apparently there is a third party energy meter that will connect directly to CBus from synctek.com.au

[ashleigh]

With the most recent release of PICED / Homegate / etc, you can connect a Schneider EN40 power meter to a cbus bus coupler or aux input unit, and then graph, track energy consumption, display it on wiser, etc.

[PGOLD]

ashleigh said - With the most recent release of PICED / Homegate / etc, you can connect a Schneider EN40 power meter to a cbus bus coupler or aux input unit, and then graph, track energy consumption, display it on wiser, etc.

I had a look at the Schneider EN40 power meter, its just a simple pulse meter it doesn't store the energy readings and you still have to get some kind of counter input interface and do all the work in programming energy meter functions to keep track of the energy pulses, log them against time/date come up with graphing routines, work out how to recall histories etc - sound like an awfull lot of work is it worthwhile?

Also, if Homegate/piced comes down or goes off line you lose all the data over that period and cannot track or correct for the drop-outs once your back on line?

I don't know what the new release updates for PICED/Homegate do as yet, but they would have to be very significant updates to accomplish all the necessary functions to provide functional and useful energy monitoring system with a pulse feed, let alone the amount of additional programming needed.

ashleigh - can you pls advise on the approx. price of the EN40 pulse meter?

If anyone has used the new software release can you please post your comments ?

[Darren]

I had a look at the Schneider EN40 power meter, its just a simple pulse meter it doesn't store the energy readings and you still have to get some kind of counter input interface and do all the work in programming energy meter functions to keep track of the energy pulses, log them against time/date come up with graphing routines, work out how to recall histories etc - sound like an awfull lot of work is it worthwhile?
It depends on what you want to do. If you use the EN40, setting up PICED or HomeGate to work with it takes less than a minute. The measured value can then be displayed on a graph to show the readings over 24 hours or whatever you want. This will only take a couple of minutes too.

If you want to do something more complicated than this, then a bit of work will be involved.


Also, if Homegate/piced comes down or goes off line you lose all the data over that period and cannot track or correct for the drop-outs once your back on line?
The graphed data gets restored automatically following a power failure/re-boot.

I don't know what the new release updates for PICED/Homegate do as yet, but they would have to be very significant updates to accomplish all the necessary functions to provide functional and useful energy monitoring system with a pulse feed, let alone the amount of additional programming needed.
Have a read of the help file for more info.

If anyone has used the new software release can you please post your comments ?
It is awesome ;)

[daky]

can you pls advise on the approx. price of the EN40 pulse meter?



Previously I was quoted around $250ea for the EN40 Pulse meter which starts to get expensive if you want to monitor 3 seperate phases or 3 seperate single phase circuits (like the Synctek energy meter) then your looking at maybe $750 . On top of that you would need a Cbus General Input module ( I think $400+) to count those energy pulses.

If you also want to monitor water and gas consumption like the Synctek energy meter then you will probably need another Cbus General Input module?

Then add the time needed to develop your software for each project $?

[ashleigh]

EN40 connects to a bus coupler or Aux input unit. NOT GENERAL INPUT UNIT. Bus coupler is simpler and smaller and cheaper.

The EN40 is not an accumulation meter, as has been pointed out. It is however a proper power meter and, unlike CT based solutions, needs no estimation of power factor or line voltage.

more info on EN40: http://www.schneider-electric.com/sites/corporate/en/products-services/electrical-distribution/products-offer/range-presentation.page?c_filepath=/templatedata/Offer_Presentation/3_Range_Datasheet/data/en/shared/electrical_distribution/en40_en_clic.xml#

The EN40 terminals deliver 100 pulses / kWh.

[daky]

Somehow, using pulse meters doesn't seem to stack up - has anyone been successful in this endeavour?

The EN40 is not an accumulation meter, as has been pointed out. It is however a proper power meter and, unlike CT based solutions, needs no estimation of power factor or line voltage. <<--- EDited to correct my typo.... NO estimation of power factor, etc.


If the EN40 needs estimates of Voltage & PF then it cannot be called a true power meter as these variables are unknown in any particular installation and may vary considerably during the day especially in industrial/commercial situations?

If thats the case, the EN40 may not be any more accurate that the "CENT-A-METER" product?

And not being an accumulation meter means possible loss of meaningfull data?

a Bus Coupler de-bounces it's inputs so that any pulse needs to be 48ms long for it to be captured as an input. This is configurable in 16ms increments. If it is configured to 0ms in Toolkit, then the unit will check the inputs once every 16ms to see if a valid input is there. If you're using a pulse power meter that outputs 10ms-wide pulses, there is a chance that it will be missed.

Seems there are some doubts whether the Bus Coupler can do the job because of response times - so we may need to use more expensive Cbus interface?

Bear in mind that the Bus Coupler inputs are not isolated from C-Bus, so depending on what you are connecting it to and where it is beiong located, you may need to use the Auxiliary Input Unit.

Also, you need to set the input unit up to toggle on each pulse from the power meter (there are instructions under the topic "Pulse Power Meters" in the PICED help).

Nick


Issues about safety/isolation may require other measures or Input devices?
Homegate programming development to provide energy displays, charts, histories and energy managment may be somewhat time consuming?
Costs may be significant if we want to monitor more than one load circuit?

Has anyone been successful in using pulse meters and can give us an idea of costs, performance and time involved?
From a systems integrator point, our margins are being constantly squeezed by competition and the high costs of Cbus components so the time required to do the job is very important.

[ashleigh]

Firstly, a whoopsy on my part. A typo. the EN40 needs NO CORRECTION for power factor etc.

Secondly - the EN40 meets the isolation requirements, and clearly the performance is OK because its been on test, in field trials, and so on for some time.

You really think support in PICED and in Wiser, on touchscreens, and so on would be released (using EN40 and a bus coupler) without having tested it first and making sure its safe?

[Darren]

Somehow, using pulse meters doesn't seem to stack up - has anyone been successful in this endeavour?
There will not be many people who have used this yet, since the feature has only been available in the software for a few days. A few people have tried this out during the field trial phase of testing, and it has worked very well.

If the EN40 needs estimates of Voltage & PF then it cannot be called a true power meter as these variables are unknown in any particular installation and may vary considerably during the day especially in industrial/commercial situations?

If thats the case, the EN40 may not be any more accurate that the "CENT-A-METER" product??
As Ashleigh has said, the EN40 measures voltage and current and calculates the power factor. It is designed for commercial use and my understanding is that it is as accurate as the electricity company meters which are used for billing.

And not being an accumulation meter means possible loss of meaningfull data?
The real-time power reading is quite meaningful and useful. The accumulation is possible with a small amount of logic.

Homegate programming development to provide energy displays, charts, histories and energy managment may be somewhat time consuming?
This has already been covered. It depends a lot on what you want to do. If you can give additional details, we may be able to provide a simple solution, or provide suitable features in future releases. It is important to understand that the work done so far is not the end of it. This is just the first step in what may become a major feature.

Has anyone been successful in using pulse meters and can give us an idea of costs, performance and time involved?
As discussed above, it is a bit too early to have much information about this.