C Touch Connection problem

[ColinCamSmith]

Background to C Touch problem

Minder can be connected from Desktop PC thru serial port at a distance of 15 metres.
C Bus can be connected from Desktop PC thru serial port and Minder at a distance of 15 metres.
C Bus can be connected from Desktop PC direct thru serial port and PCI at a distance of 15 metres.

C Touch CAN be connected from PC serial port direct at a distance of 2 metres.

C Touch can NOT be connected through C Bus PCI (only one metre from PC to C Bus PCI) at a distance of 5 metres between C Bus and C Touch.

Have tried three different laptops plus desktop (carted the desktop down three floors)

Two experienced integrators have given up and as the customer I am (to put it mildly) a little annoyed at the varying opinions received from Clipsal via the integrators.

I do not want to have to remove the C Touch screen from the wall every time SWMBO wants a change. For this reason the idea was to have the PCI on C Bus connected to a dedicated serial port on the desktop PC to solve this problem (even if the download time was lengthy) and the other serial port connected to Minder .

All suggestions welcome as SWMBO is getting crotchier by the day.

Regards,

Colin

[Richo]

The idea was to have the PCI on C Bus connected to a dedicated serial port on the desktop PC to solve this problem (even if the download time was lengthy)

Are you saying you cannot download to the C-Touch via CBus using the above method?

What firmware version of PCI are you using?

[Darren]

C Touch can NOT be connected through C Bus PCI (only one metre from PC to C Bus PCI) at a distance of 5 metres between C Bus and C Touch.

I don't understand this sentence, and it appears to the the important one. How can C-Touch be 5 meters from C-Bus when C-Touch is connected to C-Bus ?

What do you mean exactly by "can not be connected" ?

[ColinCamSmith]

Darren,

1) The lead from the PC to the C Bus PCI is one metre long. The lead from the C touch screen back to C Bus is 5 metres.

2) After about 5 seconds a message appears saying C Touch can not be connected. Behind this message is the standard " Progress blue line" which goes across about half way at the same time as the message appears.

Regards,

Colin

[ColinCamSmith]

Richo,

Am out of town at the moment. Will check firmware version on my return.

Regards,

Colin

[Rolecgroup]

Colin

I assume from the SWMBO comment you're a UK based user ?

I too did not want to have to remove CTouch everytime i reprogrammed/changed schedules.

Not sure how to cure your problem, but this is how we did it.

From Patch Panel in Study I have two runs of CAT5e, 1 goes to PCI unit mounted on din rail with other CBus equipment approximately 20mtrs away. End next to PCI is terminated with an RJ45 outlet and then a short patchlead into top of PCI. With the Serial to RJ45 lead provided with CTouch between computer and patch panel this allows me to control PCI, run Homegate etc.

Second run of CAT5e goes to CTouch, behind it in wall terminated with another RJ45 and small patch lead into back of CTouch. This gives me a permanent connection to Patch Panel that does not require removal of CTouch. When i want to program the CTouch i just move Serial/RJ45 lead from one patch outlet to next.

This gives you quick download to CTouch, and a no mess solution.

Its also what we do for other people, and seems to work well for them too.

I know it doesnt cure your problem, but it might help if you cant cure it



Dean.

[Darren]

The lead from the C touch screen back to C Bus is 5 metres.

This still doesn't make sense to me. The distance from C-Touch to C-Bus has to be 0 metres because C-Touch is connected to C-Bus. I am assuming that you have a 5 metre long cable which connects from C-Touch back to where it branches off the rest of the C-Bus network. If this is what you are describing, then the distance is irrelevant anyway. Only the length of the RS232 cables is important.

Am I correct in saying that you can connect to the C-Touch unit via the serial cable, but you can not connect via C-Bus ? The only likely cause of not being able to connect to a C-Touch via C-Bus is if you have the C-Touch unit address set incorrectly.

[ColinCamSmith]

Richo,

The firmware version of the PCI is 4.3.00.

Darren,

I understand where you are coming from. Let me try again. The distance from the C Touch screen back to the DIN rail which holds the PCI is 5 metres. The lead from the PC to the PCI is 1 metre.

Have noted your comments about Unit address.

C Touch is at address 82 on the C Bus network and the address is 82 in the Project Details in the C Touch software.

With a fifth PC we can still connect direct to the C Touch screen. We can still connect direct to C Bus thru the PCI but still can not connect to C Touch thru C Bus.

Regards,

Colin

[ColinCamSmith]

Dean,

SWMBO is the acronym some of us use as did Rumpole. No I am not Sydney based but live in downtown Sydney.

Thanks for your advice. We considered something similar but as I have Minder as well, ideally I wanted one of my serial ports direct to Minder and the other serial port to C Touch but via CBus. This would give me access to all three units from the one PC without having to have an additional patch panel just for C Touch.

I have had two integrators basically give up on the problem but as it is noted by Clipsal that C Touch can be accessed via C Bus then that is the way I want to go.

There is obviously a simple answer but we are all missing it at the moment. The final advice one of the integrators received from Clipsal was that the Touchscreen was faulty. Based on this we fitted a new screen but the situation has not changed.

I just wish someone from Clipsal would come out to my palce to have a look for themselves thereby getting a first ahnd view of the problem and from what I have read todate we would all learn.

Regards,

Colin

[ColinCamSmith]

Dean,

Sorry that should have read "not UK based".

Colin

[Richo]

Colin,

Can you lead us step by step what you have tried (eg... I selected the menu item.. and then clicked on this button), what happened, what you were expecting to happen, and any error messages. (Please post exact text of error messages).

As you can imagine since all the information we have is "it doesn't work" it is unlikely we would get approval to go onsite without more detail on what is happening.

I would also suggest if this is urgent that you call tech support as they can go over the steps on the phone with you to diagnose the problems.

http://www.clipsal.com/cis/forms/techsupport.php3

[ColinCamSmith]

Richo,

The integrator went over the problem step by step with online support on at least two occasions. They finally decided it was the Touch screen which as I have mentioned has now been replaced.

I will agian take the desktop out of its wall cabinet and take it downstairs (with screen etc etc). SWMBO will again go ballistic but I am getting used to it.

Prior to this however my recollection from yesterday is as follows.

Connected the serial cable from the PC to the PC.
Coonected to C BUs thru the C BUs program ( and got you the firmware version) No problems here as you can see.
Closed the C Bus program.

Opened C Touch.
Checked unit address was the same in Project details as in C Bus (82)
In Program Options/Connections made sure Com port was correct and connection was to be via C Bus.
Under Option/Connect to C Bus connected to C Bus. Full scan activated and completed successfully. Repeated this step to ensure handshake was successful. Via the virtual screen on the PC can activate and de-activate C Bus services.

Under Transfer/Download selected Download. After 5 seconds dialogue box appears advising "Could not connect to C Touch unit". Behind this dialogue box is a progress bar (blue line) that goes across about halfway. Both the dialogue box and the progress box disappear when you click OK on the former.

Tech Support advised previously that this meant the screen was faulty but as mentioned, we now have a new screen.

As mentioned will go downstairs later and try again.

Regards,

Colin

[ColinCamSmith]

Richo,

Have tried again and the only difference I noted was that when the "Connecting to C Touch" progress box was overlaid with the dialogue box the latter read "Could not connect to C Touch". i.e the last word "unit" was a figment of my imagination.

Also tried various port settings. i.e. Receive buffer to "Low",Transmit buffer to "low', both Receiver and Transmit to "low", baud rate at 2400 and Flow control "hardware" as well as the default "None".

For info, the time taken from selecting download to the appearance of the dialogue box is 10 seconds. During this time, the "Unit Comms" light (orange) on the PCI flashes continuously.

Have left the PC downstairs so let me know if you need any more data so that I do not have to take it down again.

[Richo]

Thanks for the extra info...will talk to the C-Touch guru and get back to you.

[Darren]

There are a few things that could be set-up wrongly.

To download to C-Touch via C-Bus :
1. In the Program Options form, select PC Connection to C-Bus via Serial Port
2. In the Program Options form, select PC Connection to C-Touch via C-Bus
3. In the Project Details form, select the C-Touch Unit Address
4. Select the Options | Connect To C-Bus menu item
5. Select the Transfer | Connect to Touchscreen menu item
6. A message will state that it will connect to C-Touch on the selected unit address
7. Select the Transfer | Control Touchscreen | Beep menu item
8. The C-Touch should beep.

If the C-Touch does not beep, then C-Touch isn't receiving your messages :
1. You may have poor network communications
2. You may have the unit address wrong

If the C-Touch beeps multiple times, then you aren't getting messages back from C-Touch.

I think that you will find that the latter is the case. In this case, the cause can be the PCI version. With PCIs of version 4.0 or later, the message format changed slightly, and the C-Touch software does not recognise it (as it was written prior to this time). The new software will work correctly when it is released. You have two choices :
1. Use an older PCI
2. Wait for the new C-Touch software (the current Beta version does not do downloading via C-Bus)

[ColinCamSmith]

Darren et al,

The C touch screen beeps 3 times. To say that I am now happy is a gross overstatement.

Two months and countless hours have been spent on this problem but the root cause of the problem is the dysfunctional approach Clipsal seems to take to the upgrades of its so called integrated products.

With V1.9 screen on V1.2 software and a PCI V4.3.00 both purchased at the same time it now appears they will not talk to each other unless I go backwards.

This is another example of the lack of thought when designing product upgrades. The next thing you will probably tell me is that the new software (for which I have to again wait) is not backward compatible with the V1.9 screen.

Have had countless problems with the interface between Minder and C Bus and C Touch because they will not talk to each other and after 12 months I am less than pleased with the support from some of you colleagues.

I will contact the integrator and advise him of this latest chapter and if there is no result I am afriad I will have to look elsewhere.

Notwithstanding the above, I thank you and Richo personally for your support which unfortunately was at the end of the chain.

Best regards,

Colin

[Richo]

Darren et al,

The C touch screen beeps 3 times. To say that I am now happy is a gross overstatement.

Two months and countless hours have been spent on this problem but the root cause of the problem is the dysfunctional approach Clipsal seems to take to the upgrades of its so called integrated products.

With V1.9 screen on V1.2 software and a PCI V4.3.00 both purchased at the same time it now appears they will not talk to each other unless I go backwards.

This is another example of the lack of thought when designing product upgrades.

Hi Colin, it is good to see that we may be getting to the crux of the problem. But I certainly take on board your concerns about product compatiability and the availability of the compatiability information.

I will raise this in the department as I have some software feature ideas that may highlight these sort of issue immediately to the integrator when attempts are made to intergate incompatiable products.

The next thing you will probably tell me is that the new software (for which I have to again wait) is not backward compatible with the V1.9 screen.

Fortunately the new software will work fine with your existing C-Touch hardware. You will be required to update the firmware, but the new software will do this for you so it is fairly seemless.

Have had countless problems with the interface between Minder and C Bus and C Touch because they will not talk to each other and after 12 months I am less than pleased with the support from some of you colleagues.

I will contact the integrator and advise him of this latest chapter and if there is no result I am afriad I will have to look elsewhere.

I have just spoken to Michael in Tech Support who was talking to your integrator this morning. We have decided to send him a older PCI (no charge) so he can sort this immediate problem out for you. Michael also tested the scenario and confirmed he can download using this older PCI.

Notwithstanding the above, I thank you and Richo personally for your support which unfortunately was at the end of the chain.

Thanks for the kind words. :)

[Richo]

Oh ... and don't forget to let us know how you get on :D

[ColinCamSmith]

Richo,

Thanks and will advise outcome.

Regards,

Colin

[ashleigh]

Colin

I understand your frustration, and I think it warrants a defence.

The C-Bus range has been available for > 10 years. There are two *really* important points in all new product developments:

1. The stuff that goes over the bus *must* always be backward compatible. This allows old and new products to work with each other. So far this has been achieved, but its not easy.

2. New products require new features and capabilities. We get new feature requests and suggestions at the rate of about 2 to 5 per day. Some of these need to be accommodated to move the product range forward.

You will see though that items 1 and 2 tend to be mutually exclusive - its very hard to keep moving a product range forward whilst at the same time preserving backward compatibility. Bear in mind that C-Bus is doing things now that were not even dreamed of 10 years ago at the time of initial release.

Sometimes, things go awry with this.

The PCI was originally intended as a network commissioning device, nothing more. Over the years it has had new features added to support various other needs - to the point now where testing the PCI firmware has a detailed test procedure with about 1000 separate steps in it, and it takes a knowledgable person about 4 1/2 days to run the test.

The PCI still maintains all the backward compatible wierd behaviour and modes of the very early releases. These days, the PCI is used as a core C-Bus interface device - its used all over the place. This has provided an easy-to-use protocol-neutral interface to C-Bus, but its also shifted some compatibility issues into the software that drives the PCI.

Until recently, Clipsal had a range of software approaches for driving the PCI. These were generally developed for specific software packages. This approach was fine when there were only a few PCI based products, or PC-based software solutions. However, the number of products and PC-based software packages has really taken off in recent times.

For this reason we are transitioning all PC-based software to a common method of access C-Bus via a PCI (C-Gate). In the long term this will improve compatibility, and reduce the development effort. At the moment we are in the transition period. You will see all current software products (Toolkit, C-Touch, HomeGate, etc) change to use the new, common method.

Unlike in previous times, we are doing a lot more public beta release. Like all software beta releases, this comes with a caveat: Things WILL change, there might be defects, and not all features will be supported.

Customers who don't want to take the risk of using beta software should not use it. Customers should also not expect beta software to be fully functional - thats just not always possible.

In some rare cases (and this seems to be one of them) older software may have undiscovered defects or incompatibilities. When these are found we have a choice - do we drag out and do a "quick fix" to the older software, or do we ensure that it works properly in the newer release?

In general, its preferable to ensure full operation of the newer software and let the old die a graceful death.

In your case, its far better to add the (missing) feature into the new software than to try and patch up the old. This is happening, and we hope to have another beta out before Christmas.

Bear in mind also, that none of this is easy: the Toolkit contains over 300,000 lines of source code. HomeGate is about 450,000 lines of code. The new wireless range is 70,000 lines of code. These are not small, trivial software products or projects - its big, ugly, difficult and painful. Like any software from any vendor, there are always software defects. The only people who sell software free of defects are liars. :)

Unlike some large software vendors I can think of, we support our products and software and endeavour to keep our customers happy either with patches, fixes, hardware workarounds or updates.

Sometimes, it takes a lot of going back and forth to work out what the problems are before we can figure out the nature of the defect (if any). When we have it figured it out, we do our best to help.

[Darren]

This is the first time that this issue has arisen in the two years since the version 4 PCI was released to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunately, the first time a compatibility problem is discovered, it can take a long time to work out the cause of the problem. Most people do not download to C-Touch via C-Bus because it is very slow and you can't update the firmware via C-Bus. This is probably why it hasn't been seen before.

We will endeavour to add the feature to the new C-Touch software to allow downloading via C-Bus (via C-Gate) before the end of the year.

[ColinCamSmith]

Ashleigh,

I note your comments and although I recognise the issues involved with any software/hardware development ( until three years ago I was an EVP of a multinational and IT was one of my responsibilities) you have only come in on the end of a three year saga.

The Homeminder that was fitted will not carry out the functions as advertised in the brochures (especially security). Countless hours were spent on the phone and complaints dismissed by both Adelaide and Sydney.

In April I installed C Touch and expected it to act as advertised. It would not. Until I got personally involved in the forum, the answer, despite many phone calls was not forthcoming.

You make the point that C Bus has been around for > 10 years. C Touch has not. You say you are transitioning all PC based software to a common method of access via C Bus. The PCI as you say was also around for some time and before C Touch. Fine but surely as you developed the PCI you must have had the existing touchscreen in mind as well as the new. This would not have been a leap back to the dark ages but consideration for existing customers and new customers as the B &W screen with its firmware and software is the only one available at the moment.

Consider this. If a customer today reads your brochures and goes to say John R Turks and buys a screen and a PCI they would expect them to be compatible. They would then spend the countless hours as would probably the integrator (at their cost) trying to resolve the problem. (We had a C Touch guru from one of your major national customers here for half a day and he could not find the problem even with help from Adelaide).

I should also make the point that from the forum you will note that others have had the same problem but I am not prepared to start cutting holes in the wall as they have to do to rectify a lack of planning or consideration by Clipsal.

In summary Ashleigh your argument does not stack up as surely units that are sold at the same time and described in the same documentation should be compatible.

Further, the compatiblity of your products leaves a lot to be desired. For example and as a small issue. C Touch can not be used to adjust the temperature on C Bus (see numerous forum comments). I have had to design a work-round using Minder sensors for control through C Touch and C Bus sensors to show the temperature in C Touch. More money

My point here is that your product development seems to assume ( as does my integrator from time to time) that we the customers live with the shortfalls in performance and compatibility until the new product comes on the market. i.e you throw out the old and install the new and to hell with the dollars.

Well here is one guy who believes a product should act as advertised and as I have told my integrator, unless I see a marked improvement in product compatibility and functionality I will not be doing an extensive fitout at my farm.

Regards,

Colin

PS Sometimes silence is the best form of defence

[ashleigh]

Ashleigh,
The Homeminder that was fitted will not carry out the functions as advertised in the brochures (especially security). Countless hours were spent on the phone and complaints dismissed by both Adelaide and Sydney.
Sadly, Minder was produced by another company and re-badged.


In April I installed C Touch and expected it to act as advertised. It would not. Until I got personally involved in the forum, the answer, despite many phone calls was not forthcoming.

As Darren has pointed out, resolving strange and previously unknown defects is difficult and time-consuming. Site visits are difficult politically, and often surprisingly unhelpful. Diagnosing this problem has not been at all easy. 99.99% of installations have no problems at all.


You make the point that C Bus has been around for > 10 years. C Touch has not. You say you are transitioning all PC based software to a common method of access via C Bus. The PCI as you say was also around for some time and before C Touch. Fine but surely as you developed the PCI you must have had the existing touchscreen in mind as well as the new.

True. The touchscreen is one of many products based on a PCI. We are also all human. As I said - show me defect-free software and I will show you a liar.

This would not have been a leap back to the dark ages but consideration for existing customers and new customers as the B &W screen with its firmware and software is the only one available at the moment.

Of many thousands of touchscreens sold, this is the FIRST time this is reported. If we were perfect, we would be walking on water in our spare time, fixing the balance of trade, lowering house prices and ensuring full employment :)

Consider this. If a customer today reads your brochures and goes to say John R Turks and buys a screen and a PCI they would expect them to be compatible.
True.

They would then spend the countless hours as would probably the integrator (at their cost) trying to resolve the problem. (We had a C Touch guru from one of your major national customers here for half a day and he could not find the problem even with help from Adelaide).
Possibly. But new software expected out in the next couple of weeks resolves this, and moves to a new and more flexible method of C-Bus access. Like many products, there is a transition period. Again, in a perfect world, every product would magically transition on a single day, and function perfectly. I'm sure your previous experience in IT has shown how difficult, expensive and rare this is. In about 2 more weeks it will be a non-issue.


I should also make the point that from the forum you will note that others have had the same problem but I am not prepared to start cutting holes in the wall as they have to do to rectify a lack of planning or consideration by Clipsal.
I don't think this is the case. There have been a number of people trying to re-program a C-Touch using long serial cables, and having trouble. As previously pointed out, long serial cables are a no-no at high data rates. After working through the specifics of the problem, this is the first report of this specific issue.


In summary Ashleigh your argument does not stack up as surely units that are sold at the same time and described in the same documentation should be compatible.
Yes, they should. In a perfect world. And when the software update is released the problem will go away. In the meantime having found the problem, we have, within a day of a conclusive diagnosis, made the offer to provide you with a short-term fix, for free. The "perfect" long-term solution is one we hope to have out within the next couple of weeks.

Well here is one guy who believes a product should act as advertised and as I have told my integrator, unless I see a marked improvement in product compatibility and functionality I will not be doing an extensive fitout at my farm.
Having dumped a bucket all over Clipsal (and you will notice that the posts have not been deleted), I think its now time to cease this public slanging match. I welcome the opportunity to continue this conversation outside this public forum. If you have other specific examples of products that don't inter-operate, or products that don't meet your expectations, please private message me I can follow up.

[ColinCamSmith]

Darren,

Short on time but are you saying I now need to add C Gate if I upgrade to the new software to make C Touch compatible with the latest PCI (notwithstanding you are supplying a PCI V<4.00).

Ashleigh,

If you want the whole 9 yards and a Clipsal representitive is prepared to sit down and talk to a customer without continually making excuses I am more than happy to point out offline the issues a customer must face. Providing of course I am not wasting my time as has been the experience with your marketing people in Sydney.

Regards,

Colin

[rune]

Colin,

I didn't read all the posts in detail, but I had the same issue in my own house and I solved it by adding a USB to serial adapter to my computer hence giving it three serial connections so that I can connect to C-Bus, C-Touch and the security system all at the same time without repatching.

Just thought I'd let you know, in case that will solve your problem - although it is not a solution as to how to program the C-Touch over C-Bus.

All the best,
Rune

[Richo]

Short on time but are you saying I now need to add C Gate if I upgrade to the new software to make C Touch compatible with the latest PCI (notwithstanding you are supplying a PCI V<4.00).

Hi Colin,

I want to make sure you understand that the new software to be released "real soon now" is a FREE update to the current C-Touch Configuration software. It is true this software uses C-Gate for programmiing, but so does ALL our software now. C-Gate is FREE for PROGRAMMING.

So to be really clear this software update that solves the reported error is FREE. If it was something that would cost money we can understand the hesitation to upgrade, no one wants to be stuck on the upgrade merry-go-round for bug fixes.

Clipsal has a very repsonsible attitude to software, most of the software we produce is FREE and the few items that cost money are items that add significant functionality to a C-Bus system above and beyond commissioning or programming functionality.

If you want the whole 9 yards and a Clipsal representitive is prepared to sit down and talk to a customer without continually making excuses I am more than happy to point out offline the issues a customer must face. Providing of course I am not wasting my time as has been the experience with your marketing people in Sydney.

If you do talk to Ashliegh (or Darren or Newman) offline these guys are the senior most engineers developing the hardware products. There is no more authoritive source. These guys can directly investigate any engeering issue to its ultimate conclusion. I would take up the offer :)

[ColinCamSmith]

Darren, Richo and Ashleigh,

The V3.11 PCI works a treat with a 1.8 metre cable from the PC. Next step is to put the PC back in the cabinet (upstairs for the last time) and try it again. As it is only 13 metres there should not be any problems.

Thanks & regards,

Colin

[ashleigh]

Excellent!

[ColinCamSmith]

Asleigh,

One small glitch thta I have noted and can not find the answer in the forum but I think I have seen it somewhere.

The C Touch unit has now had a total of four full downloads (i direct and 3 via the PCI)

I have noted that the text on the screen has become scratchy ( or to put it more simply, the letters look as though thye had had mice nibbling away at the edges) Does not look too pretty so I hope there is an answer.

I do vaguely remember reading somewhere about this problem and font selection although I have not changed the font between downloads.

Look forward to your response,

Regards,

Colin

PS have not tried from upstairs as I am waiting on a RS232 plug before the PC goes back into the cabinet)

CCS

[ColinCamSmith]

Ashleigh,

Forget I asked the above. I think I have found the problem and will check when I set-up again. It relates to screen smoothing which must be off apparently.

Regards,

Colin

[Darren]

You are correct - it does relate to Windows "smooth fonts" which must be switched off. The FAQ describes this.