Home Gate intermittent connection

[dsamson]

Hi,

I am servicing an old C-Bus network (about 6 yo with those big and ugly 4 channel dimmers and relays) which is linked to a PC with HomeGate v3.3.
There are 7 networks, star connected with network bridges all back to the PC.
Every now and then the PC is loosing the communication with the network. Several minutes later, the system is back on line.
As I said the system is old, the PC interface and the Network bridges are old type (the big and ugly ones).
I also find the system very slow with the toolkit. To scan 1 network with 50 units using the same PC (same PC interface) through a network bridge it takes more than 5 minutes.

Can somebody help me with some hints? Where should i look for the fault.
Please have a look at the attached review.
The review is much longer. I've just scanned only one page. You will see all the error messages.
What's interesting, the review is telling me that there are some unit address conflicts, but they don't come up when i scan the network with toolkit.

Thank you very much.
Daniel

[Darren]

The first thing you need to do is to change some of your logging options. Switch off the "csv" option - this is only needed if you are putting the log into a spreadsheet or database.

You also need to switch on the C-Bus and C-Gate messages options. If you can capture this problem happening and send the log into tech support, they should be able to provide some specific advice. It would also be beneficial to activate the C-Gate log at the same time so that you have logs from both HomeGate and C-Gate for the duration of the failure.

[Nathan]

Im having the same issue as above with the network dropping every now and then.
I found a return loop in the cbus wiring but it has sped up the scanning but still i get the drop out the Pc is a HP brand new from the client but I feel that there could be a corrupt unit is this possible for these errors.

Cheers

[Phil.H]

Having been around for a 100 years or more I have had similar problems with "old" C-Bus installs. It sounds like you have dodgey comms. The problem is dodgey comms can be caused by many things in old installs. Poor joints, moisture in 5751 (external PIRS) and the big one being noisy / ****ty (thank you v Bulletin) power supplies. Go back to the basics, isolate sections of the network until you find a section or unit that is causing problems. Old C-Bus installs can be as reliable as ones commissioned yesterday, however, every now and again a unit or termination can cause you grief. Hunt it down and eliminate it with extreme prejudice ;)

[Nathan]

Phil
feel like a trip up the coast?
Its a brand new install that Local Clipsal reps have called me in to have a look.
Ive started to replace dimmers checked the network at every switch and PIR 32 of them. Still working on it but the network connects fine most times then it drops out with error syn network 1 of 32 etc.
The Pc running homegate is connected via an Eithernet interface new Hp and also tried my laptop with similar dropouts.
Should I continue to replace the relays / dimmers? Ive tested the voltage 15vdc each side equal to earth the network has 6 relays / dimmers all with power supplies currently 31vdc. There is a bridge I have added but the network was dropping out before I installed that. When I originally inherited the site I found a return loop on the bus fixed that then the network worked quicker on scans but still intermitant drop outs occur all the relay / dimmers had no earths connected. I wiil check the external pirs again as they are the only external input units. Anything else I should check before I send you out a coastal vacation Phil?:confused:

[PSC]

Can you give us an idea of the size of the installation i.e number of networks, number of units per network etc.

Anyway, what would PhilH know about really really weird, unexplainable problems with HomeGate / Schedule Plus??? :eek:

It's all theory Phil, or guess work! :p

[Nathan]

The Network im concerned about local (250) is 32 units 3 dimm, 3 rel 1dlt, 2ext pir, 1 cni, 1 bwctouch, 1 x ness cbus panel, 1 x network bridge other input units are classic 1 2and 4 gang.
When Viewing the network status in homegate most times it syns fine but some times it stops and the connection drops plus you get the message error last sync with unit 2 of 33.
When i view the other network (254) log it also drops out in homegate with the same issue.
The log in cgate shows something like oprhaned response from group unit 1 network 254 then this will repeat ever hour or so with different units and networks etc.
I am slowly disconnecting each dim and relay at a time but its very slow as the dropout is only every now and then.:confused:

[Phil.H]

Nathan,

One of the first things I would be looking at is the Ethernet network - is it dedicated to the C-Bus install or is it part of the building network. How often does the network go down ? How long does it stay down ? How do you get it back up or does it recover on its own ??? Have you tried connecting via a PCI - if so any problems via this method???

One thing is for sure, I know you aren't doing weird things with your network comms like some others insist on doing at times. You whistle and I will point at my old mate PSC :p

[Nathan]

Phil

The Network Interface connects to a netgear router there is a seperat netgear adsl modem and the only other device is the homegate PC I restored it to scratch to try and rule it out. There is no firewall on or virus protection. Yes it is the same network I am having trouble on the other house runs fine but show it its network state error sync 1 of 32 on the problamatic network only. It does eventually reconnect but it is very slow after it drops out before it reconnects. I have replaced the CNI but will try the laptop I have wil a PCI and see if it still drops on to rule out the network and CNI.
Regards

[Phil.H]

Nathan,

Try the PCI option first. If you get it connected easily this is a quick way of finding out which area to start looking. Will half your options. If you still have problems with the PCI or even if you find the problem is CNI / Ethernet associated you will need to have Homegate and C-Gate logs running to see what happens just prior to the network going off line. Changing gear without really knowing what is going on is too hit and miss. The other problem can be changing a few things at once and not really knowing what the culprit was. The fault finding process mentioned above might take some time but it is easy once you get the feel and it is always good to ID a problem accurately then get out your favourite hammer ;)

[PSC]

Nathan,

Check the number of clocks enabled, check the burden with a C-Bus network analyser, check C-Bus voltage for over and under voltage and compare it with the C-Bus calculator.

I know that these sound like basic suggestions but I have found (along with DrPhil) on larger multi-network installations it doesn't take much for a network to drop off-line.

Are you using software burdens or hardware burdens?

[Nathan]

Those were the first things I checked
2 clocks 1 x Hardware burden currently on the network
What does the orphaned command line mean in cgate should I be concerned about this.
I have I feeling that the Network Interface is also affecting the remote desktop connection that i am having but that is another seperate problem.
Voltage is 30vdc at the relays/dimmers (they all have PS 6 in total) Could a overvoltage due to to many power supplies cause problems should I replace some with non ps.

[PSC]

The Network im concerned about local (250) is 32 units 3 dimm, 3 rel 1dlt, 2ext pir, 1 cni, 1 bwctouch, 1 x ness cbus panel, 1 x network bridge other input units are classic 1 2and 4 gang.
When Viewing the network status in homegate most times it syns fine but some times it stops and the connection drops plus you get the message error last sync with unit 2 of 33.


Nathan,

If you only have 32 units on the network why is C-Gate reporting 33???

Go through line by line in toolkit to see if there are no double up's in the DB.

Other than that, if you are happy with the NETWORK programming, delete all units in the DB view and then do a transfer from Network > Database.

[PSC]

Those were the first things I checked
2 clocks 1 x Hardware burden currently on the network

One burden should be fine, but it wouldn't hurt to experiement with 2 or 0 depending on the length of your cable runs.

Voltage is 30vdc at the relays/dimmers (they all have PS 6 in total) Could a overvoltage due to to many power supplies cause problems should I replace some with non ps.

Yes overvoltage can cause comms errors, but not at the levels that you have on your network. Your supply is 1200mA and you are only consuming approx 500mA; this should not be a problem for you.

[Nathan]

sorry there is only 32 units that was a typo
Ive had a PCI connected for over a hour now with no drop out
The Pc connected through the CNI just dropped out could the CNI be getting drop outs from the router?

[PSC]

Maybe it would be worth while connecting via a different switch / router?

[rhamer]

Yes overvoltage can cause comms errors, but not at the levels that you have on your network. Your supply is 1200mA and you are only consuming approx 500mA; this should not be a problem for you.

How can you overvoltage a network using the correct power supplies?

My understanding (which could be wrong of course) was the number of power supplies limit was to stop the combined current delivery of all the power supplies melting the pink cable, rather than shutting down due to over current should there be a short.

Of course there is the issue of the output impedance of the power supply and the overall effect of stacking too many together, but I can't see how overvoltage could be an issue.

Cheers

Rohan

[Nathan]

further to my frustration I have found the following
The network Interface is not allowing the remote desktop connection with this certain model of dlink router. next door has the same set up but different router a much higher end dlink one with no problems.
I have replaced the Pc connection via a PCI which fixed the remote desktop issue.
Was still having netwok drop outs with home gate but has isolated it down to either one dimmer or removing the dimmer leaving one less power supply. I only have a ps dimmer with me so I wll try it first if it works then faulty dimmer if not to many power supplies together maybe?

[Phil.H]

6 by powered output units should not equate to "too much" power. There is however 6 times the chance for power supply filter circuitry to be faulty. Keep in mind C-Bus power and comms is on the same wires it only takes one tiny fault in a component associated with the powersupply etc to make comms issues. You might just have a dimmer with a minor fault. Let us know if the replacement dimmer with the PS works OK...

[Nathan]

Bingo (touchwood)
Thanks for everyones help.
The Dimmer must have been the problem replaced it with a new one with PS that has been running now with no dropouts :mad:
Is there away with a crow to find the dimmer next time that is causing itermitent issues?
With relation to the orhpaned group line commands does anyone know what this means?
Can someone to me where do I send the Invoice for the work in regards to finding the fault, China or adelaide?:)

[Phil.H]

Bingo (touchwood)
Thanks for everyones help.
The Dimmer must have been the problem replaced it with a new one with PS that has been running now with no dropouts :mad:
Is there away with a crow to find the dimmer next time that is causing itermitent issues?

I tried to use a crow once, all it did was squark a lot, pooped on my tool box then flew away (Don't worry - next time I miss spell or miss type something in the forum I will be waiting for your to jump on it to pay me back) :D You can however use a Cathode Ray Osciliscope (CRO) to look at the waveform of the C-Bus clock pulse. This may or may not tell the whole story.

With relation to the orhpaned group line commands does anyone know what this means?
Can someone to me where do I send the Invoice for the work in regards to finding the fault, China or adelaide?:)
When comms are screwy you can get lots of weird messages reported by C-Gate. The trick is to analyse what is going on just before a fault.

Good to here you got it sorted - with that fire burning I think the F3 is still closed so it would have been difficult for me to get up there to see you ;)

[ICS-GS]

I know its a little of the track... glad you got it sorted!:)

But for those interested i have had a similar situation where the CNI drops out, turns out in some (most?) routers there is a maximum lease time on an IP address, which sometimes causes these types of problems to occur.

One for the memory banks...

Grant

[PSC]

I tried to use a crow once, all it did was squark a lot, pooped on my tool box then flew away

You don't have a toolbox! :cool:

[Phil.H]

You don't have a toolbox! :cool:

You're right I have four. I was on the tools before you had your "first". Did I ever tell you my theory on why the Cronulla riots started ??? :D

[Nathan]

ICS-GS
You are correct The Network interface was dropping out due to the lease time.
Also this is why the remote desktop connection also dropped out after the lease time and I couldnt connect after the routers 180seconds.
But I can confirm that iwas connected to the same network via a CNI and the network dropped out every hour or so.
I hope this helps other young players with some network knowledge.
Cheers

[Duncan]

You don't have a toolbox! :cool:
I can vouch for Phil's most excellent technical pedigree.. we have the same fundamental technical background in an organisation that, at that time, valued its Technical Elders and spent vast sums of money in transferring as much knowledge as it could to its up and coming recruits. He probably stole his toolbox from that company when he left.. just like me :) Along with my Ladder, Drill, and Butt.

[Phil.H]

I can vouch for Phil's most excellent technical pedigree.. we have the same fundamental technical background in an organisation that, at that time, valued its Technical Elders and spent vast sums of money in transferring as much knowledge as it could to its up and coming recruits. He probably stole his toolbox from that company when he left.. just like me :) Along with my Ladder, Drill, and Butt.

Dunc is right on the money. I was going to mention that one of the toolboxes I own I acutually made in the early days of my training but I knew that would create confusion. Dunc, you forgot to mention the weller soldering iron with replaceable tips. Still the best soldering iron I have. I often worry where the skills shortage will end up as business can't / won't train people like they used to. We have not seen anything yet when it comes to the skills shortage. Those of you with the skills and experience will continue to be busy and make good coin ;)

[Phil.H]

I know its a little of the track... glad you got it sorted!:)

But for those interested i have had a similar situation where the CNI drops out, turns out in some (most?) routers there is a maximum lease time on an IP address, which sometimes causes these types of problems to occur.

One for the memory banks...

Grant

Grant, can't you set a non routable IP address with a lease that does not expire ??? :)

[Duncan]

I often worry where the skills shortage will end up as business can't / won't train people like they used to. We have not seen anything yet when it comes to the skills shortage. Those of you with the skills and experience will continue to be busy and make good coin ;)

Indeed.. large organisations are now driven by a desire to teach their recruits as LITTLE as possible in order to get the job done.. no technical philosophy, no "cross training", no complimentary skills, a two week induction delivered by some limp wristed trainer who recieved a "train the trainer" course a week before and drools over the concepts of pedagogically correct outcomes, core competencies and key deliverables.

[rhamer]

Why is it that every ex telecom person I come accross has a shed full of orange tool boxes and the best tools that money can buy :confused:

I think my phone line rental would be half what it is, if all you guys handed back your stuff when you left :)

Cheers

Rohan

[Phil.H]

Why is it that every ex telecom person I come accross has a shed full of orange tool boxes and the best tools that money can buy :confused:

I think my phone line rental would be half what it is, if all you guys handed back your stuff when you left :)

Cheers

Rohan

Hey - most of the tools were classed as "consumable" and as such they did not want them back. That's my story and I am sticking to it :D

Paid for four years to study and train. You could not imagine that by today's standards. That's why I can't win a chook raffle these days, I think I used up all my good luck getting that job all those years ago.

Rohan, if you ever run out of cutters, pliers, screw drivers etc give me a call :p

[ICS-GS]

Grant, can't you set a non routable IP address with a lease that does not expire ??? :)

Probably...but i have yet to see one. You can usually set them to an extrodinarily long time if you want.

But they usually renew straight after dropping out, thus re-starting the lease, just depends on what you were doing when it dropped out.

[rhamer]

...Rohan, if you ever run out of cutters, pliers, screw drivers etc give me a call :p

Thanks Phil, but I have another ex Telecom mate that keeps me supplied :)

I should also confess, that whilst I'm not ex Telecom, I do have a few items that I aquired over the years ;)

Cheers

Rohan

[ICS-GS]

Well you're all dirty rats then....

Perhaps I need to find a friend that used to work for the big T

Is there a diredctory of ex-telecom guys with gear to give away?:cool:

[ashleigh]

Dunc is right on the money. I was going to mention that one of the toolboxes I own I acutually made in the early days of my training but I knew that would create confusion. Dunc, you forgot to mention the weller soldering iron with replaceable tips. Still the best soldering iron I have. I often worry where the skills shortage will end up as business can't / won't train people like they used to. We have not seen anything yet when it comes to the skills shortage. Those of you with the skills and experience will continue to be busy and make good coin ;)

I worked for a different govt organisation that used to train about 50 apprentices a year - electrical, "radio", refrigeration, carpentry. These days they do... NONE. All those tradeys have gone on to earn a few quid, but there is nothing to get the next generation going.

And I didn't go through that route, but I did end up with one of their toolboxes. In a fit of honesty I gave it back when I left. Must have been the first one ever, I don't think they had a clue what to do with it. But everything was an accountable asset (they used to send somebody around now and again to check it was all still there) and I didn't want to get the bill for "losing" it all. Stupid mistake that was!

[ashleigh]

ICS-GS
You are correct The Network interface was dropping out due to the lease time.
Also this is why the remote desktop connection also dropped out after the lease time and I couldnt connect after the routers 180seconds.
But I can confirm that iwas connected to the same network via a CNI and the network dropped out every hour or so.
I hope this helps other young players with some network knowledge.
Cheers
Nathan

You probably want to see if you can change the router so that some of the IP addresses are fixed (normally just bump up the lowest numbers IP address it can allocate), then change your various machines and CNI so they all run with fixed (static) IP addresses.

It's more of a pain to set up each device, but that way you can be sure that the address will stay the same for ever.

For a CNI, it is certainly Clipsals preference that DHCP allocation of IP addresses be avoided. (Though I don't know that this appears in any document - don't flame me if you can't find it in writing.)

[Duncan]

Hey - most of the tools were classed as "consumable" and as such they did not want them back. That's my story and I am sticking to it :D

Thats a good story, better than the one I've been using, I think I'll use yours from now on.. thanks! :)

[Richo]

Hey, I just found a box of consumable Multi-room Audio gear under my desk :D

[Phil.H]

Hey, I just found a box of consumable Multi-room Audio gear under my desk :D

Richo - It must be your lucky day. Hope there are consumable speakers in there as well. Make sure you look after this stuff and treasure the good fortune for many years to come...;)

[JohnC]

Nathan

You probably want to see if you can change the router so that some of the IP addresses are fixed (normally just bump up the lowest numbers IP address it can allocate), then change your various machines and CNI so they all run with fixed (static) IP addresses.

It's more of a pain to set up each device, but that way you can be sure that the address will stay the same for ever.

For a CNI, it is certainly Clipsals preference that DHCP allocation of IP addresses be avoided. (Though I don't know that this appears in any document - don't flame me if you can't find it in writing.)

We ran a Homegate in a commercial application with a CNI connected to our normal LAN network and had NO problems after 3 or 4 years of operation (Homegate 1.3 was the latest and greatest when it was set up). That system used fixed IPs, which was also handy because we used to VNC into the box to do maintenance, rather than driving for an hour just to change an icon or whatever.

[dsamson]

Comming back to this message.
Just a thought. Can the C-Gate that runs for HomeGate be setup not to force a rescan/sync if the error is related to an input unit? HomeGate should work fine as long as all the output units are OK.
Sometimes is difficult to find the input units with an intermittent fault and on most of the projects control via HomeGate is more important than a single faulty switch.

Regards
Daniel

[ashleigh]

The way that C-Gate works for handling device and network errors is on the table for a re-working.

This is some time away, though.