Controlling Motorised Devices with following LED status

[PSC]

First of all the blinds should be electrically interlocked using two channels of a Change Over relay.

TOOLKIT

Create one GA for that blind in the 'Trigger' application e.g. KITCHEN BLINDS.

Create four 'Action Selectors' e.g. 0 = OFF, 1 = OPEN, 2 = STOP, 3 = CLOSE within than GA.

You will need three buttons to control the blinds - OPEN / STOP / CLOSE.

Setup the OPEN / STOP / CLOSE button functions as a 'Scene' within the input unit (DLT, Reflection, Saturn & NEO only). Edit the details for that function by selecting the box to the right of the 'function' drop down box.

Select 'KITCHEN BLINDS' from the 'Trigger Group' drop down box, select the required 'Trigger Group Action Selector' from the drop down box - i.e. OPEN. Leave the other options in that window as default - Scene 1 and Instant.

Setup the output unit (Change Over relay) for the required GA's i.e. -
Channel 1 = KITCHEN BLIND 1 OPEN
Channel 3 = KITCHEN BLIND 1 CLOSE
Channel 3 = KITCHEN BLIND 2 OPEN
Channel 4 = KITCHEN BLIND 2 CLOSE


PICED / S+

Create a scene for the blinds along these lines -

FOR THE OPEN COMMAND:
KITCHEN BLIND 1 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 1 OPEN to Level '100%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 OPEN to Level '100%', Ramp Rate '0s'.

SCENE TRIGGER:
NETWORK: NETWORK1
APPLICATION: Trigger Control
GROUP ADDRESS: KITCHEN BLINDS
TAG: OPEN

FOR THE STOP COMMAND:
KITCHEN BLIND 1 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 1 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.

SCENE TRIGGER:
NETWORK: NETWORK1
APPLICATION: Trigger Control
GROUP ADDRESS: KITCHEN BLINDS
TAG: STOP

FOR THE CLOSE COMMAND:
KITCHEN BLIND 1 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 1 CLOSE to Level '100%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 CLOSE to Level '100%', Ramp Rate '0s'.

SCENE TRIGGER:
NETWORK: NETWORK1
APPLICATION: Trigger Control
GROUP ADDRESS: KITCHEN BLINDS
TAG: CLOSE

FOR THE OFF COMMAND:
KITCHEN BLIND 1 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 OPEN to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 1 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.
KITCHEN BLIND 2 CLOSE to Level '0%', Ramp Rate '0s'.

SCENE TRIGGER:
NETWORK: NETWORK1
APPLICATION: Trigger Control
GROUP ADDRESS: KITCHEN BLINDS
TAG: OFF

You will need to setup your timers for the OPEN / STOP / CLOSE functions in the 'Constants' section of the Logic Engine. Here's one I prepared earlier -

KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer = 1;
KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer = 2;
KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer = 3;

Another good idea is to setup reset the timers in the 'Intialisation' section of the Logic Engine. Here's one I prepared earlier -

TimerStop (KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer);
TimerStop (KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer);
TimerStop (KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer);

OK, now we need to write some code to control the blinds. Here's one I prepared earlier -

{BLIND LOGIC CONTROL - OPEN}
once (GetCBusLevel("NETWORK1", "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS") = 1 {"OPEN"} ) then
begin
TimerStart(KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer);
end;

once TimerTime(KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer) = "0:00:45" then
begin
SetCBusLevel("NETWORK1", "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS", "OFF", 0);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer);
end;

{BLIND LOGIC CONTROL - STOP}
once (GetCBusLevel("NETWORK1", "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS") = 2 {"STOP"} ) then
begin
TimerStart(KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer);
end;

once TimerTime(KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer) = "0:00:02" then
begin
SetCBusLevel("NETWORK1, "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS", "OFF", 0);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer);
end;

{BLIND LOGIC CONTROL - CLOSE}
once (GetCBusLevel("NETWORK1", "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS") = 3 {"CLOSE"} ) then
begin
TimerStart(KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSOpenTimer);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSStopTimer);
end;

once TimerTime(KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer) = "0:00:45" then
begin
SetCBusLevel("NETWORK1", "Trigger Control", "KITCHEN BLINDS", "OFF", 0);
TimerStop(KITCHEN BLINDSCloseTimer);
end;

You will find that the scenes will be fired by the trigger levels and LED on the input unit will stay on for the nominated time as well as following the current direction of the blinds.

[Chicken]

What if you are not using a change over relay can this still be done in (PICED)

[PSC]

Not using a change over relay will still work fine. The only reason why we recommend using a change over relay is to electrically interlock the up / down - open / close channels.

If a change over relay is not used there is a chance that both channels could be powered at the same time and damage the motor.

[Chicken]

Well u can still put in a software interlock which does the same job but isnt as full proof as a changeover relay. if you create a up scene and set the up channel to 100% with a 4s ramp rate and the down channel to 0% also with a 4s ramp rate. Then create a down scene and set the down channel to 100% with a 4s ramp rate. set the up channel to 0% with a 4 sec ramp rate. I am sure this is a software interlock and i have used this interlock in several projects with out any promblems as of yet. But with out the change over relay i cant seem to get your program to work in piced. Is this because i need a logic engine to create a timer that will trigger these scences.
Maybe by looking at the project you can tell me what i am doing wrong.

[Duncan]

Well u can still put in a software interlock which does the same job but isnt as full proof as a changeover relay.

(please excuse the off topic post.. )

Therac 25, a radiation therapy machine.. a great example of hardware interlocks being given the shove in favour of software interlocks.. disastrous results.. a fascinating story.. overview at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

More detailed info at the external links referenced at wikipedia..

[ashleigh]

After 20 years in te electronics and software design business, I'll recommend a hardware interlock every time over a software interlock.

[Chicken]

I get the point but lets face it what are the chances of cbus software energising those two channels in a malfunction. yes there is a chance that someone may locally toggle the channels but i quess you just diable local toggle. There is a saying out in the country . "It's FARM SAFE" . So i guess u just put your faith in cbus runng smothly with no hick ups.

[rhamer]

Iv'e heard that saying a little differently.

"It's Farm Built"........

Sorry, but I agree on the hardware interlocks.

[PSC]

Example -

The client doesn't like your attitude, they ring me up and ask me to take over the C-Bus programming.

You haven't left the client any files or documentation and I need to start from scratch. I start controlling the output units via the built-in buttons. I turn on all the channels on a 12ch relay, I am now powering both sides of the motor. The motor is now stuffed and I need to replace it.

Result - Two very unhappy campers.

To answer your question re programming in PICED - yes you need the logic engine.

[Chicken]

That is a fair call, I see the many floors in software interlocks now . Especially with the cow boy programers getting around. A very good point. What were your thoughs on the way i program or the way i set a project out.

[Caroline Springs]

Gents,

If you use a change over relay, you will use 3 of 3 terminals in the first changeover channel and 2 of 3 terminals in the second changeover relay. Even that this arrangement provides a hardware lockup I see that the second channel of the changeover relay can be replaced by a single channel from a standard voltage free relay unit. The voltage free relay channel is connected to the common line from the blind motor and output this line to the common channel of the changeover relay, which selects up or down.

I'll have to control 16 window shutters soon, and according to PSC I'll need 16/2 = 8 changeover relay units (about $400 x 8 = $3200). But if I use 4 changeover relays ($400 x 4 = $1600) plus two 12-channel voltage free relays ($700 x 2 = $1400), I'll not only be paying slightly less money, but I'll have 8 relay spare channels.

Have any member tried this configuration?

CS.

[Darpa]

As long as you feel confident in your ability to program the relays correctly in this situation, then there is no reason why your suggestion wont work electrically :)

Darpa

[Caroline Springs]

Another advantage of using this configuration is the chance to control motor speed. If the voltage-free relay is replaced with a Dimmer, it would be possible to control motor speed. The changeover relay controls then motor direction.

CS

[PSC]

Caroline,

Connect any motor to a dimmer, run it at less than 100% and see how long it lasts...

Then report your findings back on this forum ;)

[Darpa]

EDIT:

Ignore this post, as Rohan has corrected me later in this thread

Now now Peter, be nice, and stop trying to teach people a lesson just by tricking them into wasting large amounts of money until they get the point :p
(Sorry to ruin all your fun mate, I'm just a prick like that :p )

Caroline Springs, just so you know, motors, or any other devices that are not lights (of the types defined as being suitable for the dimmer), should NEVER be run from a dimmer! Dimmers are so-named because they are designed for "dimming" LIGHTS ONLY!!

[BSS]

Why would you want to slow the blinds down any further. Most blinds are painfully slow anyway, with good reason to protect the investment and to limit damage when things start to go wrong in the mechanics.

[rhamer]

Caroline Springs, just so you know, motors, or any other devices that are not lights (of the types defined as being suitable for the dimmer), should NEVER be run from a dimmer! Dimmers are so-named because they are designed for "dimming" LIGHTS ONLY!!


This is not right.

Dimmers can control inductive loads. They are also suitable for controlling ceiling and exhaust fans (and yes I know about the noise produced from the triac switching).

This is stated in the documentation that comes with the dimmer modules, and for the record, I have had both ceiling and exhaust fans running off dimmers for many years, with no problems.

Now, I have no idea of the suitability of the blind motors, but to say you should never run a motor from a dimmer is wrong.

Rohan

[Darpa]

This is not right.

Dimmers can control inductive loads. They are also suitable for controlling ceiling and exhaust fans (and yes I know about the noise produced from the triac switching).

This is stated in the documentation that comes with the dimmer modules, and for the record, I have had both ceiling and exhaust fans running off dimmers for many years, with no problems.

Now, I have no idea of the suitability of the blind motors, but to say you should never run a motor from a dimmer is wrong.

Rohan

Fair point Rohan :)

The reason for my statement earlier is just that from personal experience, everyone I've talked to about the subject has strongly recommended against this practice, but I am more than happy to concede being wrong about the subject.

Some other interesting reading about this topic:

Switching Ceiling Fans (http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1734&page=2&highlight=fan+dimmer)
Ceiling Fan Control Using Just 1 Button (http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2387&)
Ceiling Sweep Fans and Low Power Supply (http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108&)
Ceiling Fan control (http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1691&)

Darpa :)

[eleroAustralia]

Hi there,
just to clear it up:

DO NOT RUN BLIND (OR SHUTTER) MOTORS ON A DIMMER

it WILL damage them (and they do not run any slower if you would connect them anyway :-)

the only exepction would be DC motors (and ramping the voltage down) IF allowed by the specs.